The Biggest Miracle

[David Sklansky]

I'm very uninformed about bible stories so what I am about to write might have some serious flaw of which I am unaware. If so, just ignore this post.

Of the biblical miracles, it seems that there is one that makes all the others almost pale in comparison. Both because of its implications and because it is so far beyond the reach of scientific explanation. If it is true, religion is true. If it isn't, religion is false. And I think almost everyone would agree.

The miracle I have in mind is not the resssurection of Jesus in spite of the impact it had. Because the event itself is not nearly as earth shattering scientifically speaking. Maybe there was a medical explanation. Only a few people saw it. It was a one time thing. Plus only one religion is affected The stopping of the sun fits the scientific criteria but not the giant implication criteria. If it was found to never have happened, religions that believed in it wouldn't face a major setback.

The miracle that most religions can't do without and that science can't, I don't think, begin to explain, is manna pouring out of the sky for forty years to feed the Jews in the desert. Whether this actually happened is the "litmus test" for religion as far as I can see. Am I ignorant of some fact that makes this comment wrong?

PS After writing this post I realized that there is at least one other miracle that should vy for the title. The death of every first born male Egyptian- The tenth plague and the cause of Passover.

[SNOWBALL138]

There's sort of this huge lack of evidence that

1. Jews were slaves in egypt.

2. They wandered around for any length of time in or around egypt.

So, your mana criterion is almost a cheap shot. I like it though.

[AAAA]

Regarding the "resurrection" of Jesus, My own questions about the idea that Christ "died to save me from my sins" were answered as I was reading a "Course in Miracles," it hit me like a ton of bricks. Jesus was not attempting to save us, He was showing us that we were expected to save ourselves, or not, through the seemingly miraculous power to control our own situations, outside the traditional rules governing our physical lives. These abilities are given to any and all of us as sons and daughters of God or some Higher Power. We have the power to create the reality we believe we deserve.

There are several instances in the Bible where Jesus tells us that the use of miracles is not only for Him, but is given to us all to the extent we believe in our ability.

Getting back to the resurrection, Jesus volunteered to be put on the cross, to show one more time that others are not in control of us. He let the Romans do their damnedest to "kill" Him, then He showed up 3 days later alive and well.

The lesson to me is not that He died for our sins, but rather proof that no one could do anything to Him without His consent, and couldn't kill Him if He didn't permit them to try. Dis He suffer? I am not sure that He was even really "there." Seems more likely that the essence of Him was someplace much more comfortable.

Prisoners of war who survive terrible treatment talk of going inside themselves or finding another reality where they were in control of the situation, and not victim of what was being done around them. They mastered their own situation. It is akin to the idea that time passes quickly when you are having fun. Relativity isn't just for physicists.

After many years of wondering what was going on, and reading and asking questions, I have satisfied myself of the existence of multiple realities and choices. Too many things seem to have pointed to similar conclusions. Death is not so fearful a thought as it was 20 years ago. More and more I am excited about the opportunities that are yet to come than i am dreading physical mortality.

One final thought, about bad things happening to good people. If you allow that you are only in charge of your own perception of reality, and others are in charge of theirs, the so called atrocities or victories that seem to happen in this world are more a reflection on us, and what we believe can happen, than pain or ecstasy for someone else.

[SNOWBALL138]

"PS After writing this post I realized that there is at least one other miracle that should vy for the title. The death of every first born male Egyptian- The tenth plague and the cause of Passover. "

I like how you keep picking things that can almost certainly can be contradicted by historical record. Very smooth.

[txag007]

[ QUOTE ]
There's sort of this huge lack of evidence that

1. Jews were slaves in egypt.

2. They wandered around for any length of time in or around egypt.

So, your mana criterion is almost a cheap shot. I like it though.

[/ QUOTE ]
Evidence

More Evidence

[andyfox]

It is my understanding that Paul,who wrote earlier than the others, didn't say anything about the resurrection. Is that not correct?

It is also my understanding that people who were crucified were usually not buried in stone graves. Rather that they were left in shallow graves, where the bodies were often picked apart by scavenging animals and birds. Thus it is likely Jesus was not buried at all and the emptry tomb story is just that, a story, invented by his followers, as they still considered Jesus a living presence amongst them.

[laurentia]

I am also unfamiliar with bible stories but generally the biggest miracle has to be something that cannot be explained as simply the exaggeration of an unlikely event. Wind can carry different things and people have probably survived for a long time in the desert. I would be more impressed with outright lies and I bet that David Copperfield feels the same way. Certain hallucinations qualify as well.

[TheQ]

I am busy reading the bible right now for the first time. (I'm 30)
First thing I'd like to say is this:

Lets not argue the fine points, I know you could pick apart everything I say quite easily, I'm good, but you're probably better.

When it comes to poker, emotional control is a must. As an expert David, you must be able to deal with bad beats, and this lends itself to God. Your perceptions and decisions are skewed when you're mad, and thus cannot hear God, or play poker properly.

As for becoming a great poker player, study study study, is a must. Also shows dedication. Why not let that dedication run over into other areas of your life? After I finsish the Bible, I'm going to study Jewish books, and maybe some other religions as well, to get a better understanding of God.

I'm pretty sure by now poker is yours, you OWN it. Even if you decide to read the bible, to learn some values, and morals, without faith, it's still better than doing nothing. My thought processes from poker tell me that much. Everything on TV, and in the world influences you, I'm sure of it. Why not read the bible once? Even if you doen't convert, it can't hurt, and may even help you to change some of the things you value, into things you no longer value so much. For me it was was work, and money. I'm a lot happier now that I value my wife, and kids, above work.

Anyway back to the manna, they put some in a vessel, to be stored away for future generations to anylize, I don't know if it's still stored in the ark. Read EXODUS from the old testament.

As a poker player you learn to think more deeply, on higher levels, and this is exactly what God is looking for in a christian.

Here is a great website I found the other day, which is helping me to define the ideas, or name them, (and thus understand more deeply the things I've been realizing lately
from reading the bible)

Guided Bible Studies

The problem you might have is this: Apparently as a sinner, you cannot think deeply enough to understand it. Sounds like a trick to you doesn't it? "Hmm, I have to accept the holy spirit in order to think more deeply." Well I'll be honest, I was baptised when I was younger, and the bible never made sense to me. Until I turned 30. I guess, looking back I see natural progressions from one phase of life to the next. 12 yr old boys play with fire. 18 year old boys vandalize stuff. 30 year olds are grown up enough to deeply understand the bible. The Holy Spirit, enables you to take it further, as well.

I also have some nutrition tips that help as well, but anyone who wants to know, is going to have to take some initiative, and ASK.

Says right in the bible: Ask and you shall recieve. There is a reason for this. You can give a person the answers, to make his life happier. But now, you've pointed out his flaws. You have increased the differential between his potential, and his current level of performance, by raising his level of awareness. It's like telling someone that punching people is wrong, after his parents taught him it was ok. If he accepts what you tell him as right, but keeps on doing it anyway, he is now performing at a lower level in relation to where he was at before. This is probably why God doesnt have any direct contact with us. If we KNEW he existed, for sure, and STILL, we kept sinning, we would be worse off than we were before.

Besides, having faith is hard, it's a test.

Here's a suggestion, you don't have to try it, but, I'm doing it right now.
Assumption 1) The holy spirit is my conscience so I know right from wrong.
Now instead of praying, I TALK WITH God. I ask questions and He tells me the answers.
Possiblity 1) I am talking to myself, based on my definition of God, and He doesn't exist.
Outcome 1.a) I am happy
1.b) I go crazy (I doubt it, but it is possible)

Poss 2) I am talking to myself and He does exist.
Outcomes 2.a) He is forgiving because he sees me trying.
2.b) He is talking with me, and as my level of understanding increaes, it becomes easier and easier.

SO, if the Holy Spirit is my conscience and I am pretending to hear God in my head, the Holy Spirit won't let me say anything untrue (from God's perspective)

A sidenote: I noticed that only 2 people were spared from death. God came and picked them up. Enoch in Genesis, and Elijah in 1,2 Kings. The only thing I can see in common with both of them is this: Constant communion (talking) with God. There's the reason I am talking with Him. I don't know any christians who do this. Their level of understanding hasn't matured enough yet. Thats a prayer I make all the time. "Please help me deepen my level of awareness as you see fit. But not so much, that my level of performance falls off." As I increase my consciousness, I have to decrease my sins, and increase my faith and works...My sins become more glaring to me, because I am able to see more clearly, as I think on deeper and deeper levels.

One more thing I want to add. Hopefully, this will work for a non-believer such as yourself. Have you ever felt some tingles on your head, neck, or body from a moving song? I personally believe it's the Holy Sprit stirring within you. see the story of SAMSON who's strength was derived from the length of his hair. So if the Holy Spirit is stirring within you, it must mean God is close (or happy about what you are doing at that moment) Now, samson was born before jesus came, and starting baptising people, but, he HAD the Holy Spirit stirring within him, SO I am thinking that ALL people have at least some access to the Holy Sprit. So when I pray, or ask God a question, if I feel that tingle I know it's right. If not, then it's undecided. This is another prayer I make all the time. "Please grant me more access to the Holy Spirit, as you see fit." I am aiming to have that 'tingling' feeling going on ALL day, EVERY day. Seems so simple to me now. But only 4 months ago, it was like rocket science.... And yet, like a poker player realizes, the more I learn, the deeper the rabbit hole goes. I am only on the tip of an iceberg.

Another reason I believe everyone has some access to the Holy Spirit is this. In genesis it said: God decided to make a man like himself. But Adam and Eve's sons, took wives. Incest is wrong. Soon after people began calling themselves "The Lords people" So there must have been other people right? There was a distinction between those with souls/access to the holy spirit, and those without. Then God flooded the earth and killed everyone execpt Noah and his family, who also were decendants of Adam and Eve. So everyone on earth today is directly related to Noah (and Adam and Eve) Therefore, you and I, are "The Lords people" as well.

I don't see any realistic negative expectation here, so why not go for it? God doesn't mind having the sheep (people who are followers, and with limited understanding) But He WANTS people who can TALK WITH Him. Those are the special ones. The prophets, who do miracles, parting oceans, and doing amazing miracles.

When I first got involved with my daughter (who was 6) who I had never met, I had no real love for her. So I faked it until it became more natural, and kept on going, until it was real. Fake it til you make it. Same idea with God. Fake talking with Him, until, it becomes real. Fake being his friend, until it's natural. Just make sure your intentions are pure.

There is so much I've learnt in such a short time. (ALL OF THIS IN A COUPLE MONTHS) This email could go on much longer.

I've got some really good books (that aren't religious whatsoever, that add to my knowledge, and proof) Again, ASK.

You can't help someone who's mind is closed. But, if they ask, then, they must have a mind open, to new possibilities.

Who wants to wake up?

Will.

[txag007]

[ QUOTE ]
It is my understanding that Paul,who wrote earlier than the others, didn't say anything about the resurrection. Is that not correct?


[/ QUOTE ]
1 Corinthians 15 (New International Version)

1 Corinthians 15
The Resurrection of Christ
1Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures , 5and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

9For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. 11Whether, then, it was I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.

The Resurrection of the Dead
12But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.
20But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For he "has put everything under his feet."[c] Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

29Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? 30And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour? 31I die every day—I mean that, brothers—just as surely as I glory over you in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus for merely human reasons, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised,
"Let us eat and drink,
for tomorrow we die."[d] 33Do not be misled: "Bad company corrupts good character." 34Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God—I say this to your shame.

The Resurrection Body
35But someone may ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?" 36How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.
42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"[e]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. 48As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we[f] bear the likeness of the man from heaven.

50I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."[g]
55"Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?"[h] 56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58Therefore, my dear brothers, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.

[andyfox]

Is what you are quoting written by Paul? As I say, it is my understanding that Paul's letters predate the gospel writers. Do you know if that is so? And that they do not mention a resurrection. Is that so?

Thanks.