Curtains: screw the 10 BB 'rule'

[sofere]

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If opponents know that he also raises with super-premium hands (QQ+), they will be less likely to push over the raise. In effect, the raise is either really good, or sort of good; the big hands protect the sort of good hands. Right?

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I think this is right on. It goes along with "Shania." Say there are 6 hands he raises here with...A8-AT and AA-QQ. Players in the blinds won't be able to push back junk because of the threat of premium hands. If they do...you can easily muck A8 without much hesitation. However, they will also play back at you more when you have QQ-AA.

If they call, you still have an okay hand with position and can make a post flop decision.

[EasilyFound]

Now I understand. Thanks for educating me. Never thought about it like that. Makes perfect sense.

[curtains]

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Someone asked about A8o..Id probably raise to 250 with that hand, as I would with big hands like QQ as well.

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Why would you raise 250 w/A8o but push w/AQ? Aren't you faced with the same tough decision if one of the blinds calls and you miss the flop and have to decide whether to c-bet or not? And if one of the blinds pushes, you're going to call, aren't you? Then why not push? I don't understand the reason for playing the two hands differently.

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I have no intention of calling a reraise with A8o. btw moving allin preflop with A8o is quite reasonable as well. What I don't understand is why youd think that AQo and A8o have the same value preflop when you are reraised for 10x the BB!

[curtains]

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If opponents know that he also raises with super-premium hands (QQ+), they will be less likely to push over the raise. In effect, the raise is either really good, or sort of good; the big hands protect the sort of good hands. Right?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is right on. It goes along with "Shania." Say there are 6 hands he raises here with...A8-AT and AA-QQ. Players in the blinds won't be able to push back junk because of the threat of premium hands. If they do...you can easily muck A8 without much hesitation. However, they will also play back at you more when you have QQ-AA.

If they call, you still have an okay hand with position and can make a post flop decision.

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Well Im raising with a bit more than that. And I open push with ATo probably, the hand just has too much value IMO to raise with the idea of folding when you have only 16x BB, and only 12.5x effectively when dealing with the BB.

I just avoid all the BS. It seems to work great for me. For the most part you want to avoid confrontations in sit and gos unless you have a premium hand and or you are dominating the opponent. This is due to the pay structure of the event. I wouldn't play this the same way if the pay structure was top heavy or if it was a MTT or whatever.

For all those times you are convincing someone to reraise you with some crap like A6 (Which they wont do so often), they will also reraise you with stuff like 44, 55, 66 which is a huge -EV blow if they were going to fold to an allin bet. They will also call preflop sometimes which is a situation I find unbelievably annoying. There are so many difficult flops to play. I am just going to take my huge EV by pushing and run. AQo doesn't seem strong enough for me to expect to earn over $15-$20 just by making a normal PF raise.

[curtains]

btw the above is just my feeling on the matter. Im sure that making a normal raise is totally fine, but it goes completely against my style in sit and gos.

[EasilyFound]

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What I don't understand is why youd think that AQo and A8o have the same value preflop when you are reraised for 10x the BB!

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i forgot we were dealing w/situation where you had more than 10x bb. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

[EasilyFound]

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I wouldn't play this the same way if the pay structure was top heavy or if it was a MTT or whatever.


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btw, how would play be different if payout was top heavy: winner take all or 70/30?

[curtains]

I would probably make a normal raise with AQo if the pay structure was 70-30 ish, because now getting action is more favorable and there are fewer downsides.

[tewall]

That's what I normally do with stack size about this size. Raise about 20% of stack (which would be about 3 BB's) and follow with a bet of the same size if checked to and the flop is missed. This often picks up an extra 3xBB, even if the flop is missed (after all, it usually misses the other guy too). If everything goes wrong, with over 15xBB to start with, you wind up with close to 10xBB, instead of being gone.

[tewall]

Running this on SNGPT, assuming as average calling range, AQo is the worst recommended pushing hand (i.e., just barely good enough to push). If one assumes a loose calling range, that doesn't change. Only a "maniac" calling range lowers it down to AJo.

It seems to me the problem with pushing AQo is that you can make more by making a standard raise and following it up with a continuation bet. Even if this goes wrong, you still have about 10BB left. You have a good chance of picking up an extra 3BB by playing this way, plus a better chance of getting all-in against a worse hand (i.e. a weaker Ace is probably more likely to attempt a re-steal here than call).