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  #131  
Old 12-14-2005, 08:35 AM
wtfsvi wtfsvi is offline
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Default Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences

[ QUOTE ]
If Determinism is true then the demon also does not have free will and the history of his actions were inevitably set at the creation of the universe. It would be impossible for the demon to make a prediction you could go against.

[/ QUOTE ] No. Because determinism doesn't say, that such a being, if it existed, couldn't lie or couldn't shut up. You are the one saying that.

I have a mission for you. Go to the store tomorrow, and test out this scenario:

Assumption 1: You have money and the store has apples. They are willing to trade with you. You will try to buy apples.
Assumption 2: You can only utter the words: "I want to buy bananas." Nothing else.
Assumption 3: Except for moving your lips to say you want bananas, you can't move.
Assumption 4: The clerk will not give you apples.

Now, if we know with absolute certainty that 2 and 3 is true, we are left with 1 or 4. Which one is most likely wrong?

I have shown that it is impossible to buy apples.
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  #132  
Old 12-14-2005, 10:32 AM
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Default Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences

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However if the demon does make a prediction and your action is opposite of that prediction, then determinism has failed. Free will exist.

[/ QUOTE ]

So by that reasoning, my computer program would have free will too. You KNOW the inner workings of the program. And you can predict with certainty what it will do. But you have no way of entering that prediction into the program and have it come true. I've just created a computer program that has free will. I'm a genius, no?

Paradoxes (however absurd) do not mean free will exists.

Yours is somewhat like saying time travel is impossible because of the grandfather paradox. But, it's not even as impressive as that, really. The demon could still predict your action (but not tell you), and you could still go back in time (but not kill your grandfather).

At this point, you either realize you were wrong, and your stubbornness is causing you to continue this line of reasoning; or you don't realize it, and you... well... nevermind.
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  #133  
Old 12-14-2005, 06:00 PM
Stu Pidasso Stu Pidasso is offline
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Default Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences

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If the demon predicts something and it does not happen, that just demonstrates that the demon is a fake.

[/ QUOTE ]

Determinism holds that it is theoretiically possible to make 100% accurate predictions about the future. The demon is just a thought experiment to help us examine and discuss that issue as well as other issue associated with determinism. To facilitate this we assume the demon is not a fake.

I agree with you that in a "real life" situation we would have to consider the possibility the demon is a fake.

Stu
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  #134  
Old 12-14-2005, 06:22 PM
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Default Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences

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[ QUOTE ]
If the demon predicts something and it does not happen, that just demonstrates that the demon is a fake.

[/ QUOTE ]

Determinism holds that it is theoretiically possible to make 100% accurate predictions about the future. The demon is just a thought experiment to help us examine and discuss that issue as well as other issue associated with determinism. To facilitate this we assume the demon is not a fake.

I agree with you that in a "real life" situation we would have to consider the possibility the demon is a fake.

Stu

[/ QUOTE ]


If you did something other than the demon said you would, then determinism would be rendered false. Note, the unpredictability of the future does not in and of itself prove free will true AND I hold it true that you could not disobey the demon (I think we established this earlier, sorry to repeat myself).
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  #135  
Old 12-14-2005, 07:26 PM
Piers Piers is offline
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Default Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences

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Determinism holds that it is theoretiically possible to make 100% accurate predictions about the future.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree.

Maybe our definition of determinism is different. I would claim that it is impossible to make 100% accurate predictions about the future, however the future is still completely determined beforehand.

[ QUOTE ]
To facilitate this we assume the demon is not a fake.

The reason the thought experiment leads me to believe determinism is false is because I believe that if the demon made a prediction I could take the opposite action, and I can't envision a reliable process that would block the demon from making a wrong prediction.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ether you cannot falsify the demons prediction or the daemon is fake. You have only showed that your model is logical flawed and have said nothing about determinism.

Irresistible force immovable object
Demons that never lie, but who never the less tell porkies.
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