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  #121  
Old 12-13-2005, 07:08 PM
atrifix atrifix is offline
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Default Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences

[quoteObviously one of the premises has to be false. I'm saying premise 1 is false because fatalism is false.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you want to claim that this is a refutation of fatalism, then your argument is viciously (badly) circular. It reduces to "Fatalism is false because fatalism is false."
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  #122  
Old 12-13-2005, 09:12 PM
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Default Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences

"

If I don't do what the demon predicts, does that mean I have free will?

Stu
"
Yes. But you CANNOT do something other than what the demon predicts.
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  #123  
Old 12-13-2005, 11:25 PM
Stu Pidasso Stu Pidasso is offline
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Default Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences

[ QUOTE ]
If you want to claim that this is a refutation of fatalism, then your argument is viciously (badly) circular. It reduces to "Fatalism is false because fatalism is false."

[/ QUOTE ]

It reduces to Fatalism is false becuase the future cannot be predicted with 100% accuracy. This is true even with total knowledge of all facts past and present down to the smallest detail and complete understanding of all physical laws that govern our world. Quantum Mechanics backs this up.

Stu
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  #124  
Old 12-14-2005, 12:08 AM
Stu Pidasso Stu Pidasso is offline
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Default Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences

[ QUOTE ]
The fact is, the demon CAN predict what you will do -- it's just that by telling you in advance of your action, he is adding another cause into the equation. Just like entering a # into my computer program adds a cause in determining what # is printed on the screen.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes but the demon knows this just as I know the computer program will display a "1" if I input "0". The difference is every prediction I make with the little computer game is supposed to be wrong and I am most certain they would all turn out wrong. I know that it is impossible for me to make an accurate prediction.

According to determinism every prediction the demon makes is supposed to be right. Determinism also holds that there is nothing the demon is unable to predict. It holds that if the demon predicts that I will eat the ice cream, then I will eat the ice cream. If the demon predicts the next character printed on the computer screen will be an "0", then a "0" will be displayed regardless of what key is actually pressed (the demon already knows what key is going to pressed).

Stu
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  #125  
Old 12-14-2005, 12:15 AM
Stu Pidasso Stu Pidasso is offline
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Default Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If I don't do what the demon predicts, does that mean I have free will?


[/ QUOTE ] Yes. But you CANNOT do something other than what the demon predicts.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are indeed a true fatalist.

Stu
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  #126  
Old 12-14-2005, 12:49 AM
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Default Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The fact is, the demon CAN predict what you will do -- it's just that by telling you in advance of your action, he is adding another cause into the equation. Just like entering a # into my computer program adds a cause in determining what # is printed on the screen.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes but the demon knows this just as I know the computer program will display a "1" if I input "0". The difference is every prediction I make with the little computer game is supposed to be wrong and I am most certain they would all turn out wrong. I know that it is impossible for me to make an accurate prediction.

[/ QUOTE ]

No it's not. You can tell me: I will enter a "0" and the computer will print a "1". You can do this as many times as you need to convince me that the computer output does not have free will, and that you have sufficient understanding of the working of it to predict its output. The demon can do the exact same thing.

The fact that your entering of the # into the computer, or the demon entering his "prediction" into your head makes you do something other than what was entered or "predicted", does not mean the demon didn't know what you would really end up doing -- it just means that he can't tell you before hand, because then you would act differently.

If you don't get this, I give up. This is very simple.
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  #127  
Old 12-14-2005, 04:11 AM
Stu Pidasso Stu Pidasso is offline
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Default Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences

[ QUOTE ]
it just means that he can't tell you before hand, because then you would act differently

[/ QUOTE ]

Determinism holds that once the initial conditions of the universe have been established the rest of the history of the universe follows inevitably. That means that wether or not I am fated to eat the ice cream was written 15 billion years ago at the big bang. It doesn't matter if the demon reveals to me his prediction unless I have a choice in the matter. If I have a choice then history is not inevitable as determinism holds.


Stu
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  #128  
Old 12-14-2005, 06:53 AM
wtfsvi wtfsvi is offline
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Default Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences

Meh. It would also be decided before hand what the demon would tell you. Really, the scenario doesn't show anything.
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  #129  
Old 12-14-2005, 07:27 AM
Stu Pidasso Stu Pidasso is offline
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Default Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences

[ QUOTE ]
Meh. It would also be decided before hand what the demon would tell you. Really, the scenario doesn't show anything.

[/ QUOTE ]


If Determinism is true then the demon also does not have free will and the history of his actions were inevitably set at the creation of the universe. It would be impossible for the demon to make a prediction you could go against. The demon would either make a prediction you fulfill or make no prediction at all.

However if the demon does make a prediction and your action is opposite of that prediction, then determinism has failed. Free will exist.

The only way the senario can prove or disprove determinism is if it is actually played out. Unfortunately that will not happen and we can only think about it as a thought experiment. Its only usefulness is to clarify the intuitive.

The reason the thought experiment leads me to believe determinism is false is because I believe that if the demon made a prediction I could take the opposite action, and I can't envision a reliable process that would block the demon from making a wrong prediction. I suppose the demon could have a coronary and die just before making a wrong predicition but the probability of that is pretty low.

Stu
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  #130  
Old 12-14-2005, 08:17 AM
Piers Piers is offline
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Default Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences

I think the demon is made of straw.

[ QUOTE ]
The reason the thought experiment leads me to believe determinism is false is because I believe that if the demon made a prediction I could take the opposite action, and I can't envision a reliable process that would block the demon from making a wrong prediction. I suppose the demon could have a coronary and die just before making a wrong predicition but the probability of that is pretty low.

[/ QUOTE ]

To say the demon is impossible is a bit strong. Rather it is impossible for anyone to confirm the demons reliability.

If the demon predicts something and it does not happen, that just demonstrates that the demon is a fake.

Determinism is not proved false, the demon is just revealed as a fake, or more likely you just confused yourself and the demon was in fact correct the whole time.
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