Peggy Noonan on Imigration

[andyfox]

Might be part of it too. Might also be why the Dems haven't hit harder on the issue, as they obviously can't afford to alienate any group of voters, their current fortunes being bad enough as it is. But I had heard that Hillary was going to try to run conservative on illegal immigration. Were Bush up for reelection, it might be poliltically smart to do so. But the next Republican candidate, one would think, will be more hardline on illegal immigration than Bush.

[JackWhite]

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Might be part of it too. Might also be why the Dems haven't hit harder on the issue, as they obviously can't afford to alienate any group of voters, their current fortunes being bad enough as it is. But I had heard that Hillary was going to try to run conservative on illegal immigration. Were Bush up for reelection, it might be poliltically smart to do so. But the next Republican candidate, one would think, will be more hardline on illegal immigration than Bush.

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I doubt it. If you are tough on illegal immigration, it is implied that you are driven by racism or xenophobia. I think this is more of a driving factor than the pressures from business interests.

I think this is one of those issues that the Democrats will have to deal with. It took Nixon to go to China, because if a Dem did it, Nixon would have called him red. It took a Dem to overhaul welfare, because if a Rep president signed that, it would have been said that he was starving the poor.
I think illegal immigration is one of these types of issues.

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they'd tax or punish the employers to the point where the jobs are no longer economical to provide. The GOP doesn't do this because

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Taxing is meant to raise revenue, period. Not to control other peoples lives, businesses, who they hire, or what they spend their money on. The GOP doesn't target taxes like this because the basic belief in economic freedom doesn't escape them too often.

[Rick Nebiolo]

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First, it troubles me that my good friend spends his morning reading Peggy Noonan/

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12:56 am is morning? You must be a real early riser [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]


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Another disgusting piece from Ms. Noonan.

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Although flawed in spots, I didn't see it as "disgusting". I'm in favor of reasonable imigration, but certainly it needs to be legal, as it was in the old days and as it is today with people from most other areas. I agree with Noonan that the border sieve increases a sense of lawlessness (BTW, I don't see her column implying this makes illegal immigrants "cynical lawbreakers" per Chris Alger). She doesn't even mention that this is increasingly becoming a national security problem - probably the biggest reason to start taking this issue seriously.

All my Grandparents came throuh Ellis Island. They all kept some attachment to the "old country". But they (and most that came with them) made sure their children assimilated. Were not losing all of that, but we certainly seem to be losing more than before.

Still, the best thing that could happen would be for lands to the south to build fair and prosperous societies. The fact that they haven't (along with the tremendous discrepency between rick and poor) is a tragedy.

~ Rick

PS I'm not sure where this is a Republican v Democtrat, liberal v conservative, left v right issue. I've seen both sides and the middle all over the place.

[Chris Alger]

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Taxing is meant to raise revenue, period. Not to control other peoples lives, businesses, who they hire, or what they spend their money on. The GOP doesn't target taxes like this because the basic belief in economic freedom doesn't escape them too often.

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No one with a passing familiarity with the tax code believes this. To note the most famous example:

"Affordable housing is in the national interest. That is why the mortgage interest deduction for primary residences was put into the federal tax code and why tax reform of
any kind should continue to encourage homeownership."

From the GOP's 2004 platform.

[MMMMMM]

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I doubt it. If you are tough on illegal immigration, it is implied that you are driven by racism or xenophobia.

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Which is of course a crock.

[andyfox]

But an unfortunate legacy of the history of racism and xenophobia which attended the treatment of immigrants in hte past. And there surely is an element of racism and xenophobia in the attitudes of some who favor a tougher policy, witness the comments of some of the Minutemen that prompted President Bush to charcaterize them as vigilantes.

[MMMMMM]

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Typically without a shred of evidence, Noonan contends that today's anti-immigrant zealots are a new breed concerned primarily with abstract rule-of-law issues instead of the fears and prejudices that have driven their movement for the last 150 years.

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We could rationalize the policy with the sort of guest worker programs they have in other rich countries, but racism and xenophobia make it politically infeasible.

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Just wondering, Chris, if you, in light of the above, differentiate between those who oppose illegal immigration and those who oppose legal or all immigration?

Surely there can be those who oppose illegal immigration who are not motivated by racism or xenophobia--no? One simple reason might be the desire to keep out those with totally unknown backgrounds, especially criminal; another might be the long-standing preference for immigrants with advanced job skills, money or education--not wholly unreasonable preferences.

[Chris Alger]

Some people no doubt "oppose" illegal immigration for no other reason than its illegality, and to the same degree oppose illegal tax deductions, traffic violators and the like. But "illegaltiy" is obviously not what's driving this issue and the respect accorded "legal" immigration -- which largely involves highly educated, skilled workers -- is a smokescreen.

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One simple reason might be the desire to keep out those with totally unknown backgrounds, especially criminal

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Americans live without a care in the world about the "totally unknown" backgrounds of their neighbors. The obsessive concern for background checks for immigrant laborers reflects the mentality I was referring to.

[MMMMMM]

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Some people no doubt "oppose" illegal immigration for no other reason than its illegality, and to the same degree oppose illegal tax deductions, traffic violators and the like. But "illegaltiy" is obviously not what's driving this issue and the respect accorded "legal" immigration -- which largely involves highly educated, skilled workers -- is a smokescreen.

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One simple reason might be the desire to keep out those with totally unknown backgrounds, especially criminal

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Americans live without a care in the world about the "totally unknown" backgrounds of their neighbors. The obsessive concern for background checks for immigrant laborers reflects the mentality I was referring to.

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I don't see how you can fairly claim this, or fairly assert that most Americans oppose illegal immigration because they are racist xenophobes.

In your prior post, you wrote:

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We could rationalize the policy with the sort of guest worker programs they have in other rich countries, but racism and xenophobia make it politically infeasible.

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Don't we offer visas and work permits and green cards already?

There are myriad good and valid reasons to oppose unlimited illegal immigration. Racism and xenphobia are not among them, nor even at the forefront of most Americans' concerns: because if racism and xenophobia were at the forefront, then most Americans would oppose ALL immigration, legal immigration too--not just illegal immigration--but they don't.

I think you are viewing too much through a racism/non-racism lens, and are unfairly attributing negative characteristics to the average American. You are also making it sound like there are no good reasons to oppose illegal immigration; when in fact there are, and they are plentiful.