Hypothetical AK Situation

[bluefeet]

Been IM'ing with a fellow 2+2'er regarding an AK situation. Without sharing my own (or his) thoughts, I'd like you to consider the following:

$50'ish dollar sng (PP, stars turbo)
7 handed
blinds 50/100
no pertinent read on villian

SB - t1,100
BB - t2,000
UTG - t2,700
MP1 - t1,500 (villian)
MP2 - t500
CO - t2,000
Button - t1,500 (hero)........dealt AKo

1 fold
MP1 raises 200 to 300
2 folds
Button/Hero ????

If you have the time or interest, I'd like you to consider each of your 4 options here.

Please tell me what your move is & your reason for doing so - in relation to the opener's likely holdings.
..."why is this move perhaps more effective against him holding ??"?

Also, explain your reason(s) for not choosing one of the others.

Thanks!!

[durron597]

[12:53] durron597: that is a horrible spot
[12:53] durron597: sometimes i raise sometimes i call
[12:54] bluefeet: yeah, the "raise" is what got us talking
[12:54] bluefeet: it really wasn't much of a consideration for me
[12:55] bluefeet: i usually push over top (donk'ish)...or call off 1/4 my stack facing a c/b and a whiff [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]
[12:55] bluefeet: the raise arguement was compelling
[12:55] durron597: whether i raise or call depends on a lot of thing
[12:55] durron597: table image
[12:55] durron597: opponent
[12:55] durron597: really the biggest factor i guess depends on whether my opponent likes to fold or not
[12:56] bluefeet: yeah, the raise came from "play it like AA"
[12:56] bluefeet: assuming two things.....
[12:56] bluefeet: you'll call PF to a rereraise/push (being fairly committed)...
[12:56] bluefeet: ..and will push a checked flop ---
[12:57] bluefeet: seeing you might get the check if he only calls PF
[12:57] durron597: well
[12:57] durron597: if you reraise preflop it has to be allin
[12:57] durron597: there is no other choice
[12:57] bluefeet: [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
[12:57] bluefeet: thats was my thinking
[12:57] bluefeet: but a reraise to 600 was interesting
[12:57] durron597: no it isn't.
[12:58] durron597: a reraise to 600 is retarted
[12:58] bluefeet: thats what i thought....think about it though
[12:58] durron597: it's just awful. holla.
[12:58] bluefeet: lol
[13:00] *** You have been disconnected. Thu Sep 22 13:00:14 2005.
[13:00] *** "bluefeet" signed on at Thu Sep 22 13:00:29 2005.
[13:00] bluefeet: or they might fold
[13:01] bluefeet: TT-77 prob won't fold to a push PF (you've seen this)
[13:01] bluefeet: i dunno
[13:01] bluefeet: it's late
[13:01] durron597: the last thing i saw was "lol"
[13:01] bluefeet: it was quite the discussion
[13:01] bluefeet: we ran through a ton of situations.....it seemed plausible
[13:01] durron597: reraise to 600 is retarted because you commit 40% of your stack to a hand you might end up folding post flop.
[13:01] bluefeet: ...to play it like "AA"
[13:01] durron597: it is horrible, period.
[13:02] durron597: ok, play it like AA. push preflop.
[13:02] bluefeet: [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
[13:02] bluefeet: i gotta go to bed!!!!

[13:03] bluefeet: (ps. i push 100% of the time here)
[13:03] durron597: sometimes a call is ok
[13:03] bluefeet: yeah, but how often do you "hit"?
[13:03] durron597: i am calling if the BB is a loose caller
[13:04] bluefeet: 35% or something?
[13:04] bluefeet: facing a c/b?
[13:04] durron597: [13:03] durron597: i am calling if the BB is a loose calle
[13:04] bluefeet: yeah
[13:04] bluefeet: pushing blows though, when his range could very often be 99+..and he WILL call your push
[13:05] bluefeet: the raise option......
[13:05] bluefeet: explore that a bit, ONLY for those times where you'd push
[13:05] durron597: no
[13:05] durron597: raise option is bad
[13:05] bluefeet: lol
[13:05] durron597: bad bad bad bad bad
[13:05] durron597: BAD
[13:05] durron597: bad
[13:05] durron597: bad bad bad
[13:05] durron597: by the way
[13:05] durron597: it is bad

why is it bad?

what hands are calling your 300-450 reraise but folding to an all in?

what hands are calling your all in but folding to a 300-450 reraise?

I want to see some nice reponeses other then "its just bad" before I make my comment

[HighestCard]

Folding and pushing are the two worst options here I think. Giving away this hand on the button is obviously playing like curtians (weak/tight). Pushing would only cause you to get called by coinflips or places where your a dog the vast majority of the time.

I see two options from here:
1. Calling and useing your position to your advantage on the flop. I say continuation bet a missed flop with one or two face cards, and check/fold to calls. He might fold an under pp, or call and check the rest of the board. He might also re raise his ace x which hit, but I doubt he is bluffing with his chip stack and position.

2. (The better option IMO)I would try a re-raise here of 300 pre flop(essentially a min raise to him), and fold to a push. It would let you know where his hand stands because he would probably push with high pp's and just call with ace x, or be a donk and call with king face suited. I know, I know "but thats over a 1/3 of your stack", I dont see how you can proceed on the flop without further information on him.

Open to flaming,

HC

[Village Idiot]

If you have no read on Villain IMO you should assume the worst case scenario.
He is tight/aggressive.
You also cannot assume that he knows or takes into account what his M is.
Many people still just look at how many X's the Bb they have in their stack.

What is the hand range a tight/aggressive would make a raise like this pre flop with in his position ?
I'd say AKs, AKo, AQs, maybe AQo since it is down to 7 handed.
AA-1010.
Possibly 99 but, not likely since we are assuming a tight/aggressive opponent here.

AA or KK is bad news.

Call and see the flop and proceed from there.

If you feel like you can get him to fold a better hand such as a pocket pair pre flop then you have to most likely raise more than 600 pre flop to get him off of it.
This is based no no other info.
If you have seen him fold to prer flop reraises then I think raising is an option.
If not I'm calling and deciding to make a move or not using my position based on the flop.

That right there is why raising minimum is a bad choice. Why the hell would you fold to a reraise all-in after a min raise? There's only 1 hand where you would be clearing correctly folding to a reraise, and that's AA. You're only a 7:3 underdog against KK, and you have around 4:6 pot odds.

If nothing else, you need to at least raise 450 so you can call kings with the right odds if he pushes you all in.

But then of course, A-K is a hand where you really want to see all 5 cards. With so much money in the pot after raising 450, if you don't get an ace or a king on the flop you'd kick yourself for not going all in before the flop because now you have 6 outs, and you just barely don't have the odds to call an all-in and you're gonna be shortstacked with absolutely no respect for your raises from the table afterwards. Which may work out in your favor...but chances are it will not.

There's no advantage in position here. You have around 3-to-1 odds of getting an ace or a king on the turn or river, compared to 2.5-to-1 pot odds if he bets you all-in now. So you have to be 100% sure that you aren't gonna get an ace or a king on the flop, 100% sure that he'll call your all-in with a lower pair if an ace or king comes on the flop, and around 90% sure that he's not gonna stuff you all-in without a pair after the flop. That's just impossible.

So if you're going to fold if an ace or king doesn't come on the flop, then YOU are playing weak/tight.

Edit: I agree with curtains, it's an all-in and nothing else.

[curtains]

In my opinion this is an extremely clear allin, and any other play is quite bad.

[curtains]

hate you [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[EnderFFX]

I shove it and don't think twice. I'd love to get 450 chips here for free. We hve one A and one K so AA and KK are rare findings (if they have those so be it). The only hands that call are probably 99-AA and AQ/AK. You win enough in everyone folding to make it worth the push, and if you get called you are in decent shape.

[caretaker1]

[ QUOTE ]
I shove it and don't think twice. I'd love to get 450 chips here for free. We hve one A and one K so AA and KK are rare findings (if they have those so be it). The only hands that call are probably 99-AA and AQ/AK. You win enough in everyone folding to make it worth the push, and if you get called you are in decent shape.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep