#1 advanced concept I wished I hadn't learned - Page 2

betgo · #1 12-07-2005, 02:32 AM

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You cant analyze a situation by thinking things like, "how often will he be dealt AA UG vs AA on the button". We have more information than that, we need to incorporate it. We know that, once we see a player raise UG, 52% of his hands will be strong enough to call. Vs. a button raise, which he will only have a calling hand 25% of the time.

So, although the number of times he will be dealt a 'calling hand' is technically the same. For all intensive purposes, he is 2x as likely to have a calling hand UG.

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Sure. My point was that especially in the early stages of low buy-in tournies, many players' opening ranges are not so dramatically different UTG versus on the button. I was cautioning OP that he shouldn't simply say, "That raise is coming from the button, I'm pushing any 2, he'll fold 75% of the time". You need to observe the player and get a sense of what HIS opening range from the button is, not what it would optimally be or what yours is.

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Yeh, fairly early in low buyin a lot of players are not raising that much more loosely from late position. This is partly because they are not good players and partly because it is difficult to steal.

Early on a raise tends to represent a big hand and a limp a marginal or speculative hand (or a big pair). To a certain extent this is tur even in major tournaments. Early on there is limping and raising, but not much blind stealing. This is partly because the blinds aren't worth stealing early on.

Some passive players will open complete from the SB unless they have a real raising hand. Sometimes I get in trouble reraising the SB from the BB with A8 or something, not realizing that most hands SB is raising with have A8 crushed.

schwza · #2 12-07-2005, 12:26 PM

i know this isn't really your point, but a good player will call a resteal with more hands if he's in LP rather than utg.

gobboboy · #3 12-06-2005, 11:22 PM

One of the principle parts of restealing is knowing when your opponent would (and should) make the raise with any two cards. Then you can resteal with any two cards. If you're planning to get called then you're not restealing successfully.

AceofSpades · #4 12-06-2005, 11:36 PM

this hand is typical of what happens when I resteal. Stacks are much deeper, and I had a top 3 hand but the principle seems the same.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t400 (9 handed) converter

SB (t23915)
BB (t8080)
UTG (t56779)
UTG+1 (t21602)
MP1 (t8090)
MP2 (t13875)
MP3 (t25655)
CO (t36328)
Hero (t33245)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
5 folds, CO raises to t1600, Hero raises to t33220, 2 folds, CO calls t31620.

Flop: (t66615) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)

Turn: (t66615) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)

River: (t66615) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)

Final Pot: t66615

Villain had AQs and had raised in that position twice previously.

I just find myself getting called very often with a hand they raised for value. I also think people are restealing from me and calling them badly as well. Perhaps at $100+ buyins people are steal raising more I don't know...

- J

Pat Southern · #5 12-07-2005, 12:05 AM

Thats a terrible push, raise to 5k if you want to get any action on your big hands. ITS NOT CALLED RESTEALING WHEN YOU HAVE KK!!!!!!

AceofSpades · #6 12-07-2005, 12:14 AM

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Thats a terrible push, raise to 5k if you want to get any action on your big hands. ITS NOT CALLED RESTEALING WHEN YOU HAVE KK!!!!!!

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Yeah I'm not really used to playing this deep. But the hand before I had also pushed on the flop, and I'm pretty sure she was steamed at being pushed off two pair.

#7 12-07-2005, 12:06 AM

OK, well going all-in for 20x the original raise is not generally a good idea. Villain doesn't have to have a good hand very often to make that a profitable situation for him. It sounds like you are playing at low limits- you shouldn't assume people are re-stealing very often. Wait until someone comes over the top of you more than once before you start calling with marginal hands. Again, it's ok to fold the best hand now and again, you only have to call correctly a few times to make up for the incorrect folds.

Blindcurve · #8 12-07-2005, 12:13 AM

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this hand is typical of what happens when I resteal. Stacks are much deeper, and I had a top 3 hand but the principle seems the same.

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I'm pretty sure that the fact that you had a top 3 hand makes it impossible for the principle to be the same. Not only are you not stealing here, you're opponent isn't stealing either.

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I just find myself getting called very often with a hand they raised for value. I also think people are restealing from me and calling them badly as well. Perhaps at $100+ buyins people are steal raising more I don't know...

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This makes sense. If they're not stealing, and they believe they have enough equity against your range, they're going to call. If they think you're stealing, and they raise for value, and you misread their intentions you're going to make a few sloppy calls.

I've been thinking a lot lately about what it means for me to play within my limitations. One of the factors I need to work on is not getting myself into situations I don't quite understand. For the buyins I play, (micro up to $22) the opportunity to resteal happens so infrequently that I don't look for it. The resteal scenario or paradigm is just not very useful for my play and to interpret the action in terms of marginal steal/restealing will lead me to more errors than correct plays. That's not to say I never make this play; it just doesn't come up in every tournament. If I make a resteal, the situation is so blatantly obvious that the move feels like a reflex. And that just doesn't happen often.

Black Aces 518 · #9 12-07-2005, 02:16 PM

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this hand is typical of what happens when I resteal. Stacks are much deeper, and I had a top 3 hand but the principle seems the same.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t400 (9 handed) converter

SB (t23915)
BB (t8080)
UTG (t56779)
UTG+1 (t21602)
MP1 (t8090)
MP2 (t13875)
MP3 (t25655)
CO (t36328)
Hero (t33245)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
5 folds, CO raises to t1600, Hero raises to t33220, 2 folds, CO calls t31620.

Flop: (t66615) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)

Turn: (t66615) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)

River: (t66615) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)

Final Pot: t66615

Villain had AQs and had raised in that position twice previously.

I just find myself getting called very often with a hand they raised for value. I also think people are restealing from me and calling them badly as well. Perhaps at $100+ buyins people are steal raising more I don't know...

- J

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You and CO both played this hand about as bad as possible.

MLG · #10 12-07-2005, 12:11 AM

you should be happy then since you clearly havent learned it.