Raising flop to get a free card

[fuzzbox]

I see this all the time in response posts these days.

Pot is 15 on flop, player bets 7 and responder says "raise pot to get a free card on the turn".

In NL holdem, raising pot does NOT give you a free card (even if he checks), because you have still paid for it.
In limit holdem, raising the flop and checking behind on the turn, gives you a CHEAP card. You can save one small bet by raising the flop and checking behind on the turn, rather than calling flop and calling turn. But we dont play that game here.

In the case above, if you raise pot then you would make it 36 to play. If you call the 7, and villain bets pot on the turn (29), then you would have paid a total of 36 to see the river.

Thus, the card is NOT free, it is the same price. In fact, by raising pot you could make it MORE expensive, as villain might bet less than pot, or might check the turn.

Raising with a draw is perfectly valid, but the reason is NOT to get a free card, because you dont get one.

Thats all folks.

I basically agree with everything you said, but I would add one more thing. There's alwasy the possibility that you get reraised off the hand in NL. So it's often cheaper to just call the flop bet if Villain is giving you the right odds to call on your draw. In limit, if you raise to get a free river card, you will often get reraised by someone suspecting your move. But of course in limit you can simply pay another small bet. This is not the case in NL.

[Hattifnatt]

Against very weak players I sometimes make a miniraise on the flop to get a Cheap card with a draw.

But most of the time I just call on the flop with a draw and right odds/implied odds.

No your right the card is not free, but can the move give us a cheaper price to see river than calling is the usual question. Let's assume we have the nut flush and would like to see if it comes. Assuming a "normal" bet comes out, (i.e. nothing that suggessts anyone is married to their hand or trying to induce bluff or reraise) a reraise can suggest strength to villian allowing us to get a checked turn which might be cheaper then a call call situation (where villian puts us on a draw with the turn and wants us to pay for it).

While it is risky as it opens us up to a possible reraise and it doesn't guarntee villian checks the turn (it merely adds deception to the strength of our hand and usually eliminates the idea that we are probably drawing) sometimes raising for a cheap card is the right play as long as we are getting proper odds. Not something to do ever time, but still a useful move.

You're right. I'm betting mostly to see what my opponent has, and because he might fold. If I already think my opponent has something strong, I'm not reraising "for a free card".

[scrapperdog]

If a pot sized bet on flop and turn is the norm for the table then why does this not work? If a less than pot sized bet is the norm then yes I see your point, but a lot of tables out there bet pot on flop, pot on turn, then bet 2/3 or 3/4 pot on river as a normal bet. By re-raising flop you are gonna save money on these tables. In other words ... I disagree, this does work on tables that have the pot as the standard bet. Not to mention that you could win the pot right then. This is not a play that I make a lot but I do it once in a while and it works fine, this really depends on what the standard turn bet is.

[mason55]

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If a pot sized bet on flop and turn is the norm for the table then why does this not work? If a less than pot sized bet is the norm then yes I see your point, but a lot of tables out there bet pot on flop, pot on turn, then bet 2/3 or 3/4 pot on river as a normal bet. By re-raising flop you are gonna save money on these tables. In other words ... I disagree, this does work on tables that have the pot as the standard bet.

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He's talking about a pot sized raise. You're either talking about a smaller raise (probably min-raise?) or you don't know what a pot sized raise. If it's a min-raise you're talking about, you better be doing that with your made hands too or else people will catch on REAL quick.

You should raise sometimes with a draw to the nuts, so your opponent cannot put you on a specific range of hands all the time and he might not be sure that you have the same pair like him with a better kicker.
When you just call and there is a flushdraw on board he can be pretty sure you have it.

[mason55]

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You should raise sometimes with a draw to the nuts, so your opponent cannot put you on a specific range of hands all the time and he might not be sure that you have the same pair like him with a better kicker.
When you just call and there is a flushdraw on board he can be pretty sure you have it.

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Yeah but that's for purposes other than getting a free card (ie semi-bluff and metagame). We're just talking about getting a free card which isn't applicable in NL. The things you listed are. Also, if you're that transparent that when you flat call a flop bet on a 2 flush board you always have the flush draw then I suggest flat calling some of your other hand when you're in position as well.

[Hoopster81]

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because he might fold

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