Please Help w/ Table Betting Line Rules

I recently made the change of placing the betting lines onto my poker tables. The spirit of the change was to eliminate players making a forward motion with 20 chips in hand and simply dropping off 2 or 3 chips in order to get a reaction from the players on their left.
I thought this would be a great enhancement but have found the change to bring about more "FLOOR" calls than ever before.

I have some specific questions concerning certain rules regarding the betting line, and haven't been able to find anything online.
Let me start by giving the rulings that we use and after each rule I will give in quotations the problem areas we keep having with them.

1) As long as you verbalize your bet or raise BEFORE you cross the line with chips your verbal announcement stands.
"Many of the players seem to keep "testing" this by taking a handful of chips toward the line and then verbalizing their intentions almost simultaneously as their chips cross over the line. IMO this is asking too much of the dealers to determine when the verbal action actually took place, as the player is always going to say that he made the verbalization prior to crossing the line, causing an arguement to ensue."

2) If a player crosses the line with a handful of chips without making a verbal announcement of his/her intentions, all chips that cross the line must stay in the pot.
"The problems we face are:
a) Sometimes players come across with a handful of chips, drop off a few chips then quickly pull back the remaining chips in their hand and put them into their stack before the dealer can determine how much actually crossed the line, what then?
b) What if a player is intending to call a $40 bet but without verbalizing anything brings across $50 worth of chips?
c) We run mainly 1-2 NL and 4-8 limit games, in the limit games we do NOT use the betting line rules, should we? I just don't see what use it is in the limit game, although I may be wrong as it has seemed to confuse some of the players that play in both the limit and NL games."

Any help with any of these questions or a site reference would be greatly appreciated.
FYI, robert's rules or cooke/caro's rules don't really touch on actual betting line rules.

Thanks very much,
CSD

[Randy_Refeld]

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I thought this would be a great enhancement but have found the change to bring about more "FLOOR" calls than ever before.


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That is why I am opposed to a betting line on the table. If you must have a line (for example if you are in California) I prefer an "ergonomics line" that is a line that has no affect on the game other than the dealer saying "please push you bet/cards over the line so I can reach them."

Any helpful info regarding the rules is what I am really looking for, not just "that is why I hate the line" comments please.
CSD

I've dealt with a betting line and without and much prefer there to be no line. It causes more problems than it prevents.

If it's already there, I don't see why you would only use it in some games; it would be worth it just for consistency.

[ QUOTE ]
Any helpful info regarding the rules is what I am really looking for, not just "that is why I hate the line" comments please.
CSD

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Oh, heh, didn’t see this comment. Exact rules vary from room to room. Some say that any chips that cross the line must be bet, other rooms let you just cut out a certain amount. I don’t know that one is necessarily better than the other but I would personally prefer the latter, given that I usually come forward with a stack of chips regardless of my action.

I would imagine that most the players who are ‘testing’ the rules are regulars. If a regular is constantly doing this it shouldn’t be hard for the floor to know about and deal with it.

I am actually a fan of the line if for no other reason than to stop the jerk who counts out his chips puts them in his hand reaches out onto the table and taps the table to check. I know that it can create problems but if you have proper rules consistently enforced there are fewer problems.

[ QUOTE ]
1) As long as you verbalize your bet or raise BEFORE you cross the line with chips your verbal announcement stands.
"Many of the players seem to keep "testing" this by taking a handful of chips toward the line and then verbalizing their intentions almost simultaneously as their chips cross over the line. IMO this is asking too much of the dealers to determine when the verbal action actually took place, as the player is always going to say that he made the verbalization prior to crossing the line, causing an arguement to ensue."

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This is easy any verbalization made that is even questionable about when it was made should be considered made prior to passing the line. WHY? because the purpose of the rule was to stop the guy who comes out with a full stack of chips and starts dropping them one at a time to see a reactio before deciding if he will call or raise. If the verbal declaration is occuring anywhere near while his hand is crossing the line then he is obviously not doing that so let the verbal declaration stand. The rule doesn't exist just to exist it exists for a purpose.

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2) If a player crosses the line with a handful of chips without making a verbal announcement of his/her intentions, all chips that cross the line must stay in the pot.
"The problems we face are:
a) Sometimes players come across with a handful of chips, drop off a few chips then quickly pull back the remaining chips in their hand and put them into their stack before the dealer can determine how much actually crossed the line, what then?

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Then have the dealer estimate what it is and act accordingly. Warn the player if he does it again he is out of the game.

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b) What if a player is intending to call a $40 bet but without verbalizing anything brings across $50 worth of chips?

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generally the rule should not be that any chip that comes out stays period. If a player brings out more chips than are needed to call, but not enough to raise
-- if the additional chips are not enough for 1/2 a raise the additional chips come back and it is a call. -- if the additional chips are 1/2 of a valid raise or more than it is the minimum raise and the player must correct the bet by bringing the additional chips in.

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c) We run mainly 1-2 NL and 4-8 limit games, in the limit games we do NOT use the betting line rules, should we? I just don't see what use it is in the limit game, although I may be wrong as it has seemed to confuse some of the players that play in both the limit and NL games."


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Why not use them in the limit game? it stops the guy who checks with chips in his hand. It stops the guy who comes out with a raise and drops them one at a time looking for a reaction from players on his left before he decides whether to call or raise.

You should not allow the chip ove rthe line is a bet to becomes the overruling rule. FOr example I have seen a player call out of turn by putting out his call ove rthe line when he didn't realize another player was in the hand. The other player now raises before him and I have seen the nits complain that his chips were over the line so they have to stay --- this makes no sense, thats not why the line was put there.

[Randy_Refeld]

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Any helpful info regarding the rules is what I am really looking for, not just "that is why I hate the line" comments please.
CSD

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Well the rule that I prefer goes back to the original intent. Use it as an ergonomics line. The only thing I would have to add about the rules is if you have a betting line change it to an ergonomics line. Asking aobut what rules to make the best use of a betting line is along the lines of "other than that, how did you like the play Mrs. Lincoln" (yes I know it is a bad analogy, but I have never seen anything good come from having a betting line).

The two biggest issues I see that have to be addressed having a betting line is how to determine if a player crossed the line in the air or stopped just short of the line and how to determine how much a player crossed the line with. There is no easy solution to these problems, it only changes the arguement. Before anyone adds a betting line I would suggest they learn all the existing betting rules; theere is most likely something in those rules that will address the problem they are having.

[boscoboy]

you friggin guys and your string bet posts - will it ever end?

i just dont get it - why do you care what the guy in front of you does in the course of his action?

so a guy reaches forward with a hand full of chips..are you hyperventelating? gasping for breath? do you wet yourself?

here's a tip:

stop reacting to the precending action


no response = no string bet

seems pretty simple to me

[ QUOTE ]
you friggin guys and your string bet posts - will it ever end?

i just dont get it - why do you care what the guy in front of you does in the course of his action?

so a guy reaches forward with a hand full of chips..are you hyperventelating? gasping for breath? do you wet yourself?

here's a tip:

stop reacting to the precending action


no response = no string bet

seems pretty simple to me

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats all well and good, but what if its not you that is reacting. What if it is another player in the pot.

[Randy_Refeld]

[ QUOTE ]
you friggin guys and your string bet posts - will it ever end?

i just dont get it - why do you care what the guy in front of you does in the course of his action?

so a guy reaches forward with a hand full of chips..are you hyperventelating? gasping for breath? do you wet yourself?

here's a tip:

stop reacting to the precending action


no response = no string bet

seems pretty simple to me

[/ QUOTE ]

This is why NL palyers should be advised to wait until the action behind them is completed. The underlying problem is that in the past NL was played by experienced players.