first live (cardroom) game -- 3 hands

[rchandra]

I was recently playing in a live game at a casino for the first time. First session -$30 (playing a bit scared I think, and 1-2 awful calls, plus a few definite suckouts... I hit so many losing sets), second +$2 (similar), third +$100 (I played better, but definitely lucky .. I never got sucked out on, which is better than expected.). I have a couple hands I was wondering about my play on. The game is fairly loose preflop (5-8 to the flop), but people generally have something if there's turn action. It's $3-$6 CAD limit with a full kill (the only game in the room). The limit is a bit higher than I like (especially with the kill), but I have some money I'm willing to experiment with.

Hand 1: I have AsKs in MP. EP raise, I re-raise, CO 3-bets, SB calls, BB caps, all call. (5 players, 20 SB)
Flop: Qd 3h 7c
SB bets, BB raise, EP 3-bets... I have to fold here right? The pot's huge but my draw is so sketchy. At most one of my overcards is good, and quite likely neither (or I'd need both). I folded, and the backdoor straight came home. 2 at the river, the winner showed QJ.

Hand 2(another day. The game is similar, a bit more friendly and relaxed.) The kill is on (BB is the killer). UTG loves the kill, and has introduced the idea of keeping track of your points (you get a point for getting the kill button, or keeping it). UTG straddles. fold, fold, raise.
I have 9h8h. The straddle confused me .. I know how it works but I've never thought about what it means. I just loked at $18, 3 bets, and folded. But afterwards, I was thinking that straddler isn't really raising the bet, just the stakes. So there's really just an MP raise, which I'd normally call at this table. Should I call? I'm definitely being influenced by the 3-heart flop. Looking at SSHE, I see it doesn't like 98s against a raise from MP. My bigger question here is how to treat the straddle and raise. I think the straddle is like the BB (especially here since the BB is still $3 and is now facing $9 + raise) and raise is like a single raise.

Hand 3 (I think this was day 1. Not day 3.):
I have 9h9d in MP. I raise and get it 3-handed against the blinds.
Flop Qd 9s 3d. Check, bet, I raise, both call.
Turn 7h. Check, check, I bet, both call. I think "somebody has a flush-draw, other guy has straight-draw or pair". No conscious reason for this, and I'm not a good reader.
River 4d. Bet, raise, I fold. I would probably have called 1 bet here. I think something is wrong there though .. either I should call the 2, raise, or not even call one.
Raiser had the Jx flush.
Other question: should I just call the flop and hopefully get to raise the turn?

Thanks for your opinions,

Rahul

[Pov]

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 1: I have AsKs in MP. EP raise, I re-raise, CO 3-bets, SB calls, BB caps, all call. (5 players, 20 SB)
Flop: Qd 3h 7c
SB bets, BB raise, EP 3-bets... I have to fold here right? The pot's huge but my draw is so sketchy. At most one of my overcards is good, and quite likely neither (or I'd need both). I folded, and the backdoor straight came home. 2 at the river, the winner showed QJ.


[/ QUOTE ]

Something in your numbers doesn't match - *you* 3-bet so who capped, the CO or the BB? Or does your room have a 5 bet cap like mine does? For discussion purposes I'm going to assume your 20 SB's to the flop summary is correct.

With 20 SB's in before the flop, you're now getting 26:3 or roughly 9:1 immediately on a call here, but it would seem likely this round of betting is going to end up 4 or 5-way capped so basically you're putting in 4 SB's to call somewhere between 32 and 36. This basically means you are getting the right price to see one more card with a 5 out draw. If you count both the turn and river you're getting the right price to call with just under 3 outs.

Counting your outs here is difficult. I'm guessing you were up against at least one other AK meaning you're likely drawing to a split. You also will frequently be facing AA or KK or AQ here so your overcard outs are really worth probably only 1-2 outs total. Your backdoor JT outs aren't worth much, but let's say they're worth 1 out. As such, it looks like you've got a fold, but if your opponents are real idiots then maybe you can peel one off and see what happens. If one of the board cards had been a [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] you'd have an "easy" call IMO. In any event, I don't blame you for folding at all.

This stuff happens, I had JJ last night, raised and was 3-bet, then called in two places. Board came up with an Ace in it and it was bet into me with the 3-bettor behind me so I folded. Of course the turn was a J and I proceeded to watch the turn get capped by AK and a lower set . . . it hurts, but I made the right decision. Oh well.

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 2(another day. The game is similar, a bit more friendly and relaxed.) The kill is on (BB is the killer). UTG loves the kill, and has introduced the idea of keeping track of your points (you get a point for getting the kill button, or keeping it). UTG straddles. fold, fold, raise.
I have 9h8h. The straddle confused me .. I know how it works but I've never thought about what it means. I just loked at $18, 3 bets, and folded. But afterwards, I was thinking that straddler isn't really raising the bet, just the stakes. So there's really just an MP raise, which I'd normally call at this table. Should I call? I'm definitely being influenced by the 3-heart flop. Looking at SSHE, I see it doesn't like 98s against a raise from MP. My bigger question here is how to treat the straddle and raise. I think the straddle is like the BB (especially here since the BB is still $3 and is now facing $9 + raise) and raise is like a single raise.


[/ QUOTE ]

A straddle just means he blind raises AND still has the option to raise when the action comes around. In my experience most straddlers *do* in fact make this raise. Your 98s is garbage for 3 bets unless there are going to be at least 5 other players in the pot which is very unlikely. Toss it and don't even think about it.

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 3 (I think this was day 1. Not day 3.):
I have 9h9d in MP. I raise and get it 3-handed against the blinds.
Flop Qd 9s 3d. Check, bet, I raise, both call.
Turn 7h. Check, check, I bet, both call. I think "somebody has a flush-draw, other guy has straight-draw or pair". No conscious reason for this, and I'm not a good reader.
River 4d. Bet, raise, I fold. I would probably have called 1 bet here. I think something is wrong there though .. either I should call the 2, raise, or not even call one.
Raiser had the Jx flush.
Other question: should I just call the flop and hopefully get to raise the turn?


[/ QUOTE ]

Eh, this is just one of those hands. Waiting for the turn isn't going to chase out any hands here IMO and with a set you've got a great chance to fill up even if the flush does hit so I think the only reason to wait for the turn would have been if you thought just calling would allow you to get more money in the pot on the turn than raising now.

Your fold is one of those plays where you need to be really really sure of your opponents and their raising standards and bluffing frequency. If the BB shows down a hand like 43 you're going to be kicking yourself, but I would be much more inclined to fold with this being a 4 than if it were a card more likely to have given someone two-pair (a hand they may be raising with that you can beat) such as a J or a T - then again that could have filled in a gut-shot straight so who knows. Anyway, if you never folded your set here without 4 to a flush or 4 to a straight on the board I don't think you'd be making a very big mistake against all but the most predictable of opponents.


[ QUOTE ]

It's $3-$6 CAD limit with a full kill (the only game in the room). The limit is a bit higher than I like (especially with the kill), but I have some money I'm willing to experiment with.


[/ QUOTE ]

What's the rake like? If the house is taking $4 plus a $1 jackpot plus you give a $1 tip you're losing so much money to the rake you almost have to move up unless you're really crushing your opponents. With a lot of 5-handed flops this could be possible, but it won't be easy, though maybe the kill makes it easier - I've not done an analysis to see how much that helps you in these situations. The rake is your toughest live opponent at low limits.

[rchandra]

[ QUOTE ]
What's the rake like? If the house is taking $4 plus a $1 jackpot plus you give a $1 tip you're losing so much money to the rake you almost have to move up unless you're really crushing your opponents. With a lot of 5-handed flops this could be possible, but it won't be easy, though maybe the kill makes it easier - I've not done an analysis to see how much that helps you in these situations. The rake is your toughest live opponent at low limits.

[/ QUOTE ]

The rake was 5% up to $4 or $5. There was a jackpot drop but I forgot to check what caused it (not done every hand). No other game was spread (weekends a "high-limit" 5-10 LHE or 4-8 dealers choice or sometimes 10-20 LHE had a list, but I didn't see it go). I usually tipped $1. $0 or 50c for a small pot or a chop where a third player was in. Tips were pooled.

Thanks for your advice, I'd totally forgotten to consider more raises from a straddler. In the AK hand, I don't remember who capped but 5 people were in for 4 bets each, including both blinds and myself.

I'm looking forward to trying cardroom play again, but not till who knows when -- no casinos in my area and travel is expensive from the Rock.

[Hoss1193]

Hand 1: This pot is way too big, and the flop too ragged, for you to fold here. No quality straight or flush draws...2 pair is unlikely (would you really put someone on Q3, Q7, or 73, suited or not, with that preflop action?). With 2 overcards to this ragged board, I think you have to stay here...even with calling the 3-bet, you're still getting 7-1 pot odds on about a 7-1 shot of hitting A or K on the turn. Sure, you might be drawing dead against a set, but there's a lot of other hands you'll beat (like QJ...the winner here).

Hand 2: 98s a clear fold here, straddle or not. The deciding factor is the raise ahead of you; that makes the straddle irrelevant (unless MP fellow got into the spirit of things and RAISED blind...I've seen that before too).

Hand 3: Folding a set = I don't think that was best play. Maybe on a 4-suited board that also screams "straight!"...but not on this board. Your raise on the flop was fine...probably don't want to slowplay a set on a 2-suited board. Yes, it turns out that you would have lost anyway on THIS hand (including the 2 extra BB)...but in similar situations, just too many times you'll have the best hand after all.

[bholdr]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 3 (I think this was day 1. Not day 3.):
I have 9h9d in MP. I raise and get it 3-handed against the blinds.
Flop Qd 9s 3d. Check, bet, I raise, both call.
Turn 7h. Check, check, I bet, both call. I think "somebody has a flush-draw, other guy has straight-draw or pair". No conscious reason for this, and I'm not a good reader.
River 4d. Bet, raise, I fold. I would probably have called 1 bet here. I think something is wrong there though .. either I should call the 2, raise, or not even call one.
Raiser had the Jx flush.
Other question: should I just call the flop and hopefully get to raise the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

well, i think you had a good read and went with it, so, nh, BUT...

generally this is a call, especially if the pot was a little bigger than it was- 11BB when the action got to you on the river. you have to put in two more, the bettor will likely call, so you have to be 83% sure that a flush or straight is out there to make this the most +ev play (you call/risk 2 bets to win 12 more, only 16.6% of the pot). If you think the raiser might be a tough player (probably not at this level) be more inclined to call in these situations- most players that make that meidiocre flush would call the bet hoping to get you to overcall, a raise from a tough player might mean that he hit his kicker to two pair and wants to isolate a weaker hand and make someone like you fold a winner in the face of two bets and scare cards. it's uncommon at low limits, though.

I also, depending on the opponents, might just call the flop and raise the turn- if you can manage to make a flush draw call two big bets with only one card to come, you force him to fold it and thus you protect your hand. i also almost never raise with nines preflop from EP or MP in a loose game.

you've read SSHE, right? if not, it's time- these games and this kind of situation are covered in depth in that excellent book. there are excellent ideas for playing in loose games, passive games, against straddlers and mainiacs, etc. seriously studying SSHE, TOP, and HEPFAP took my live game from a very expensive hobby to a nice little side income.

B

[Pov]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: This pot is way too big, and the flop too ragged, for you to fold here. No quality straight or flush draws...2 pair is unlikely (would you really put someone on Q3, Q7, or 73, suited or not, with that preflop action?). With 2 overcards to this ragged board, I think you have to stay here...even with calling the 3-bet, you're still getting 7-1 pot odds on about a 7-1 shot of hitting A or K on the turn. Sure, you might be drawing dead against a set, but there's a lot of other hands you'll beat (like QJ...the winner here).


[/ QUOTE ]

In general I agree with this sentiment, but I leaned the other way this time - Hero has nothing but overcards and 3 to a straight one way. With the preflop and flop action being what it was (capped preflop followed by bet, raise, re-raise) I think your outs are seriously tainted. The board is ragged but at least some of your 4 villains' hands will not be. If you're lucky enough not to be up against AA, KK or QQ you've still got to face AK and AQ - all of these holdings put you in really bad shape. QJ may have won the hand with two-pair, but that doesn't mean any of the other hands I listed here weren't out there - they all easily could have been except for QQ. To the original poster: Did anyone say or show what they mucked?

The point is I'm all for doing whatever it takes to win big pots, but I think your chances are just too slim considering all the action and the 3 bets to you to continue in this hand. Give me a spade for a second backdoor draw and I'm in to see a turn card.