Simple flop question

[baronzeus]

UTG limper is loose and aggressive. PFR is tight and aggressive.

Bet or check? The only reason I ask is that I had a disagreement with a friend who is also a poker player.


Party Poker 100/200 Hold'em (9 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero?

[jason_t]

Just bet. You'll take this down often enough on the flop.

[spydog]

I bet this. I'm not really expecting to take this down, but if someone raises this then I know I can get a checkraise in on the big streets if I hit my flush. If the flop action goes check-check-bet-call-call and the turn is a spade then I'm almost forced to lead it because I can't count on the TAG to bet the turn after he got 2 callers on the flop.

I suppose the side benefit to betting the flop is that you will take it down sometimes, although I think it's pretty rare because the TAG is usually raising this PF with broadway cards and will always call this flop with a gutshot. Even the loose player probably has a decent holding (like broadways) when he limps from UTG.

[shmahappens]

I like a CR in that you can get the limper to (maybe) fold a weak A and 10Q/10K - and of course hope that the button has a pocket pair.

[Boris]

I don't think it matters much what you do as long as you don't play it the same way everytime. I would consider my recent history at the table when making the choice of bet, check-raise or check call on the flop.

[poker1O1]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think it matters much what you do as long as you don't play it the same way everytime. I would consider my recent history at the table when making the choice of bet, check-raise or check call on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
agreed, moretimes than not i prefer a bet however

[jba]

what other hands are people betting here?

Believe it or not the standard play for me in this spot, is to check with the intention of checkraising. Heres why, whenever I am specically in a 3 handed raised pot and I flop a calling hand and the raiser is directly on my right, I will always raise in an attemt to isolate the raiser. If I'm out of position I will checkraise, If I have position I will raise. Even with just a naked flushdraw my hand plays better Heads up then letting the middle guy stay in. This is so becuz if I can successfuly isolate the raiser, my hand has a better chance to win if I spike a pair, and my hand has a better chance of winning unimproved since if the raiser doesnt have a hand, he will usually fold the turn, And lastly, there is always a chance the raiser will have a hand like KK on that Ace high board, and make a bad fold.

Betting out the flop is wrong IMO becuz if I bet out the flop, I am giving the middle guy a good price to stay in the hand for just one small bet, and if the middle guy calls and the button calls, now I have to actually make a hand to win this pot, which is not my entire objective. The same problem arises from checking and calling.

In specifically 3 handed raised pot situations, whenever you have a calling hand I think it is always best to play your hand is such a way to get it Heads up as soon as possible. This usually means I will be raising or checkraising with my "calling hand" and even when this play doesnt work, I only lose one small bet since I had to call anyways, and there are so many times that extra small bet investment the win the whole pot, when I dont even have a hand, that is it easily worth it. Plus this play is obviously very deceptive, and can easily get opponents to play back at you in the future when you actually have a hand which makes poker fun.

Another strategy in 3 handed raised pots thats worth considering is to raise or checkraise without a calling hand if you think the raiser missed the flop. With no reads, I think this play is too dangerous and should rarely be utilized since if one of the two opponents calls, you will have no hand to fall back on and no outs to hit.

A great example of checkraising with a calling hand in a 3 handed raised pot can be found in the book "how good is your limit holdem?" by Byron Jacobs and Jim Brier, page 162.

Note: I said this is the standard line I usually take in these situations with no reads, there are always excecptions to this play, like If I strongly believed that someone else already had a strong hand, I would obvioulsy be less apt to play my calling hand aggressively.

[RED_RAIN]

[ QUOTE ]
And lastly, there is always a chance the raiser will have a hand like KK on that Ace high board, and make a bad fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

You see this often at 100/200 in a 3 way pot with a button raise? I assume you are talking about them folding the flop or else I think it gets expensive to check/raise flop and bet turn. Is that the line you are going if you get it HUs or not on the turn and are called on the flop?

I just don't like the situations where we get 3 bet on the flop and then call the turn which makes our draw expensive or where we get called on flop and then raised on turn which makes our draw even more expensive.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And lastly, there is always a chance the raiser will have a hand like KK on that Ace high board, and make a bad fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

You see this often at 100/200 in a 3 way pot with a button raise? I assume you are talking about them folding the flop or else I think it gets expensive to check/raise flop and bet turn. Is that the line you are going if you get it HUs or not on the turn and are called on the flop?

I just don't like the situations where we get 3 bet on the flop and then call the turn which makes our draw expensive or where we get called on flop and then raised on turn which makes our draw even more expensive.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I checkraise the flop and the middle guy folds and the button just calls, yes I will bet the turn here 100% of the time.

If I checkraise the flop and the middle guy calls and the button calls, I will give up the initiative and check/call the turn(the play is ruined cuz the Middle guy called)

If I checkraise the flop and the middle guy folds and the button now 3 bets, again I will give up the initiative, and usually check down and hope to hit my hand.

By the way I dont mind getting 3 bet when I have a hand as strong as a flush draw or OESD. Does this cost me in the long run in this situation? Sure it does. But this is just an annoying little cost in the long run sine my hand is strong enough to stand this pressure. No strategy is perfect. Every stategy has its risks, but the reward is winning the pot, and the hero doesnt have to take down many of these pots without the best hand to make up for these annoying little risks of being 3 bet or having our turn bet raised. The key here, is that since the hero already has a calling hand, he is really not risking that much by taking the initiative in this hand.