100-200 heads up hand

[ClaytonN]

I'm raising every one except 9966

[gergery]

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No. You get more value by putting more money in the pot with the best hand. If you do this all the big pots will be played with your opponent in position.

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But 4 of 5 hands you list are unlikely to be the best hand. And if you are called, they are going to be the best hand even less frequently than that.


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I think everyone is underestimating Jc 2c 6s 8h. I'm pumping it 100%.

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Why do you think this is so good? Bill Boston’s book rates it 4136/5200, putting it not even in the top 75% of hands. His sims are not poker, but still. And if you hit a decent hand like two pair or trips then its likely your opponent has low, or at minimum it will be hard to jam him with confidence.

I don’t disagree with raising a lot from the button, but how you’d play these necessarily, as long as you are mixing your game up.

[jayheaps]

generally, I proably raise about 70% of hands. Actually against a very aggressive oppoentnt i might raise slightly fewer because it will give me an opportunity to occasionally limp reraise.

For the hands you mentioned. I am raising 100% of the time, with the KQJ hand as well as the hand withthe ace.

The other I would raise maybe only 10-25% of the time just to give my play some variety.

the other thing you didnt mention which could change this is how often does the opponent fold to a preflop raise

[J_V]

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Bill Boston’s book rates it 4136/5200,

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I'm not sure who he is, but he is not speaking of heads up, I would assume. If he is, than he is wrong.

[gergery]

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Bill Boston’s book rates it 4136/5200,

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I'm not sure who he is, but he is not speaking of heads up, I would assume. If he is, than he is wrong.

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Bill Boston wrote a book on Playing Omaha High-Low. He basically took Wilson’s Turbo Omaha program and ran an enormous number of simulations using a full table of tight opponents and summarized the results in tables of data.

So yes, its is not heads up data. And certainly hand values change significantly from multi-way to heads up in O8. But I’m pretty surprised that a hand that is horrible (bottom 20% basically), suddenly becomes a jamming hand heads up. But I’ve not been playing lots of head up O8 recently.

-g

[Buzz]

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In order I would rank them.

Ac 6c 9c Jc
Jc 2c 6s 8h
Qc Qh Ts 2s
Kh Qh Jd 3h
6h 6s 9h 9s

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JV - Close.

Jc2c6s8h, QcQhTs2s, 6h6s9h9s are slight dogs against random hands (~11 to 12, ~10 to 11, ~7 to 8).

KhQhJd3h, is the worst of the lot, about a 5 to 7 underdog against random hands,

Ac6c9cJc, is a slight favorite, by about 14 to 13 against random hands.

Thus I think the ranking, if you don’t know what cards your opponent holds, is:
Ac 6c 9c Jc
Jc 2c 6s 8h
Qc Qh Ts 2s
6h 6s 9h 9s
Kh Qh Jd 3h.

I used Wilson’s Omaha-8 simulator and ran each hand against random cards to get the above odds and rankings.

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I think everyone is underestimating Jc 2c 6s 8h. I'm pumping it 100%.
Running it one twodimes.net shows that this hand does better hot and cold against the QQT2 hand and the KQJ3 hand and is much easier to play.

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The Jc2c6s8h hand has a chance for low. I think in heads-up competition, hands that have a chance for low generally do better than hands that don’t. (Obviously some high only hands do better than some hands with low possibilities, but generally not). Thus it’s not surprising Jc2c6s8h simulates better than any of the other hands except Ac6c9cJc.

With regard to “pumping it 100%,” maybe so.

With regard to your twodimes.net simulation, I don’t know as it makes much difference how the QQT2 hand fares against the KQJ3 hand. I think we could probably come up with three hands like the roshambo game (paper, rock, scissors) where in heads-up competition, hand A beats hand B, hand B beats hand C, and hand C beats hand A. Twodimes.net is great for what it is, but I believe it is of more interest to know how these hands rank against random hands.

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Well it seems to reason that you should raise at least your top 50% of your hands as they are likely to be the best hand and you have position.

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That makes sense to me. However, these hands, except for Ac6c9cJc are not in the top 50%. (It still makes sense to raise with them, but how often? That is the question in my mind.)

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I like to raise in the 75% range because hands run very neutral in omaha and postion is so important. Most good players in both HE and O8 HU raise lots of buttons.

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No problem raising with the Ac6c9cJc hand. But there simply aren’t many flops you’ll like with any of the other hands. After the flop if your opponent bets, you’ll generally be hard pressed to call. If your opponent checks and you always bet, you’ll be likely to see a lot of check-raises.

A big question here is, how does your opponent play? Is he aware that almost any hand he holds is probably not all that much of an under-dog? Will he stoically call your raise with most hands and then generally see those hands through to the finish? Or will he mostly fold to your raise?

If you expect him to usually fold to your raise, then go ahead and raise with all these hands. Even if he’ll fold some of the time, you’re not that much of an underdog with any of these hands, and you have position.

This seems (to me) a game theory question. As a defender against your strategy of 75% pre-flop raising with garbage hands as well as good hands, if that is what you are proposing, and if I recognized that was what you were doing, you’d force me to break my heads-up hands into four groups.
• (1) 55:45 or better favorites against random hands
• (2) slight favorites against random hands
• (3) slight underdogs to random hands
• (4) 45:55 or worse underdogs to random hands

As a first approximation defense, maybe I’d try raising with categories (1) and (2), calling with category (3) and the top half of category (4) - and folding the bottom half of category (4).

You’d force me to call your good hand raises, but I think you’d take a beating on your poor hand raises. Well.... you do have position, a huge advantage in heads-up play.

At any rate, to combat my counter strategy you’d, of course, change your own strategy and raise less often with your poor hands.

I don’t play heads-up much. Mostly I have played it with a good friend I see a couple times a year, probably for several days at a time. We play heads-up pot limit or no limit, either THE, Omaha-8, or Omaha-high, probably several hours each day when we are together and we’re reasonably closely matched. Thus I do have a modicum of experience, but clearly not as much as you.

I generally have raised, when on the button, with about 50% of my hands, more with the goods ones than the bad ones, but not always with the good ones and not never with the bad ones. It’s more of a helter-skelter strategy than a well thought out one - and I’m not suggesting it to you. I was more interested in what you’d have to say.

At any rate, that’s my two cents worth.

Buzz

[DyessMan89]

Ac 6c 9c Jc- Raise every time
Qc Qh Ts 2s- Raise every time
Jc 2c 6s 8h- Raise every time
6h 6s 9h 9s- Probobly wouldnt raise
Kh Qh Jd 3h0- Probobly wouldnt raise

This is my rank of the hands, although I havent calculated this or seen other posts.

For percantage of hands Im raising with, Id say around 60-65% on average, and a little less due to the style of the player. Theres no way you should be raising with less than 50%, I find that to be weak-tight and just not profitable in the long run.

[J_V]

Hey Buz

I'll try and write more if I get more time. I think people that haven't played the game a lot, underestimate position. I know I did. As for raising on the button, I've played some good time with Matusow and Thunder Keller (authorities?), and they are both big button raisers, so that is reassuring that they value position as much as I do.


What program are you using? Pokerstove? I did the best I could w/ twodimes.net, which wasn't very good for what I needed.


Interesting analysis as always.

[Phat Mack]

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Well it seems to reason that you should raise at least your top 50% of your hands as they are likely to be the best hand and you have position.

I like to raise in the 75% range because hands run very neutral in omaha and postion is so important. Most good players in both HE and O8 HU raise lots of buttons.

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I think you're on the right track, but need to figure out what makes a better than average heads up O8 hand. It may be a little counterintuitive. Look at the difference between 9966ss and 8866ss.

Here's a freeware sim that might interest you:

pokercalculator

[DougShrapnel]

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My thoughts:

Against most opponents - who aren't considered sharks - I'm raising all five. Against aggressive 3 betters I'm mucking the 9966 and maybe the KQJ3.

In order I would rank them.


Ac 6c 9c Jc
Jc 2c 6s 8h
Qc Qh Ts 2s
Kh Qh Jd 3h
6h 6s 9h 9s

The last one is very questionable. I would limp against guy that doesn't raise the BB too much after a limp.
6h 6s 9h 9s.

I think everyone is underestimating Jc 2c 6s 8h. I'm pumping it 100%.


Running it one twodimes.net shows that this hand does better hot and cold against the QQT2 hand and the KQJ3 hand and is much easier to play.

[/ QUOTE ] Is this still open to discussion?

I'm not the math expert Buzz is, so I'll just agree that his numbers are correct.

Ac 6c 9c Jc this hand plays much better in a heads up match than the numbers indicate. It should be raised, I think everyone agrees with that.

Where we disagree is on the remainer of the hands.
The reason I like the Qc Qh Ts 2s is because of the high pair. It allows you to call down some bets that are likely be semi-bluffs. It prevents you from getting run over.

Next I rated Kh Qh Jd 3h
The KQJ combo is a pretty nice feature of this hand, as well as the K high flush draw. Any flop with 2 cards higher than a 8 excluding the Ace and you have yourself a pretty good hand to get aggresive with. Really make your opp think you play loose and fast.

next was Jc 2c 6s 8h
I really need to learn how to play this one, any tips?

6h 6s 9h 9s
Can't see this as anything other than a muck most of the time.