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#31
10-05-2005, 07:01 PM
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Re: I\'ve been Thinking
[ QUOTE ]
Whatever, DVaut1. Have a good life. [/ QUOTE ] Well thought out and comprehensive answer to DVaut's points [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] I always knew reading sharpened the mind. Frank 
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#32
10-05-2005, 07:40 PM
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Our man reveals his true colors...
MMMMMM, our favorite moderator, has long been a proponent of libertarianism, a political philosophy that wishes that emphasizes maximum personal freedom with minimum government intervention, dropped this gem on us:
[ QUOTE ] I have suggested that perhaps we might need a 10 or 15 million man army to actually take over the Middle East and re-mold it along the lines of a Germany or Japan. If the crazy Islamists keep attacking Europe and Australia, perhaps those citizens will get fed up with it enough to decide to do it along with us. Between all of NATO and ourselves, if we were to mobilize and prepare sufficiently, we could likely do it and maintain it for long enough to accomplish serious overhaul reform, although the time needed to actualize reform would be decades. I'm not necessarly suggesting we do this, however. However if efforts to reform the region (as we are hoping to do in Iraq) ultimately fail, and if radical Middle Eastern countries acquire nuclear weapons, and if attacks on the free world persist and grow in severity or frequency, at some point it might well become the only solution. Whether we would have the will and the unity to do this would remain to be seen; at present we have not, nor are we prepared to embark on such a course. However if the Islamists keep attacking, and grow ever more powerful and threatening, it might force our hand in that direction. By the way, the indiscretion and stupidity of the Islamists in launching their attacks fairly indiscriminately, to the point of attacking even other Muslims (as in Bali), will help rally even fairly pacifistic opinion against them. If France or other European were to suffer an attack or two on the magnitude of 9/11, for instance, you can bet that their general popular opinion would harden significantly against the Islamists. So in one sense, the Islamists might eventually prove to be their own worst enemies. If they keep attacking most everyone, sooner or later most everyone will be against them--and might become willing to mobilize for a major war. In addition to the two groups mentioned at the beginning of this post, that is, the radical Islamists and the moderate Muslims, there are also many Muslims who fall somewhere in between on the political spectrum. For instance, bin-Laden has very high approval ratings in certain countries such as Kuwait. There are many non-activist or non-radical Muslims, who would not dream of attacking the West themselves, but who nevertheless tacitly rather approve of others carrying out such attacks. All in all it is a very complex and difficult scenario. If democratic reform takes hold in Iraq and spreads, that may become enough of a solution. If it doesn't, we may end up seeing the equivalent of another world war at some point. [/ QUOTE ] it is so very INTERESTING to me that you propose going in and "molding" the middle east instead of just suggesting leaving the whole region alone. Do you feel that Islamic fanaticists would lose their preoccupation with the west if we lost our preoccupation with their oil?
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#33
10-05-2005, 07:59 PM
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Re: I\'ve been Thinking
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Whatever, DVaut1. Have a good life. [/ QUOTE ] Well thought out and comprehensive answer to DVaut's points I always knew reading sharpened the mind. Frank [/ QUOTE ] Hi Frank, I'm no longer willing to draft well-thought-out and comprehensive answers to DVaut1's posts, because it appears to be a never-ending process with him. My interactions with him always seems to end up with him attacking me in some sort of ad hominem manner, together with his asking for more "well-thought-out and comprehensive" responses. If I provide him such a response, another such attack and request will follow soon thereafter. So, there simply is no longer any point. I also suspect that for him, this process is more important than the actual ideas being exchanged. That's just my own personal suspicion, though (and I think he does this with others too, although to a lesser extent). That's why I wished him a good life--and if you're not careful, Frank, I may wish you one too;-)
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#34
10-05-2005, 08:07 PM
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Re: I\'ve been Thinking
[ QUOTE ]
My interactions with him always seems to end up with him attacking me in some sort of ad hominem manner, together with his asking for more "well-thought-out and comprehensive" responses. [/ QUOTE ] Did you not do the exact same thing? You made similar ad hominem attacks; and you demanded that I read, research, and learn. You do this kind of [censored] all the time, then criticize others for it. Just trying to level the playing field. Realizing you're an abject hypocrite might be a tough pill to swallow, but it's best to try to control it, anyway. And I don't recall asking for more well-thought-out and comprehensive responses, only that you provide me with some reason to treat your opinions as more than just the rants of some guy looking to start the next Crusade. And I asked that you keep your ego in check, given your complete lack of qualifications to speak with an (undeserved) air of expertise; and to stop criticizing others for their lack of knowledge (given there's no reason to think yours is of an extrodinary level of knowledge). "I read some books" doesn't cut it. By all means, don't follow my advice. But certainly, expect more sarcastic responses to your laughable posts, until I'm given a reason to treat them more seriously (or until you treat others with the kind of respect you demand).
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#35
10-05-2005, 08:21 PM
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Re: I\'ve been Thinking
No, DVaut1, I did not do the "exact same thing." If you cannot see that, I would suggest sharpening your forehead a wee bit on the nearest grindstone;-)
Nor do I care how you view my opinions or if you view them credibly. When I post information about certain subjects, you may be asssured that I have strong reason to believe that what I post is essentially accurate. I didn't spend nearly half a century reading A LOT to no avail. However I will no longer be entering essentially interminable debates with you. If you have a problem with that, well, tough toenails;-) Have a good life, and maybe you will ensnare other posters into endless arguments with you. This poster however has learned his lesson quite well.
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#36
10-05-2005, 08:26 PM
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Re: I\'ve been Thinking
[ QUOTE ]
No, DVaut1, I did not do the exact same thing. [/ QUOTE ] You really do the exact same thing (all the time) - I've seen you make more than a few disrespectful, snarky, condescending comments on more than a few occasions, including in this thread (which I personally have no problem with; all is fair here, if you ask me). If you can't see that, you may want to consider getting your eyes/memory checked (then again, I think we all remember how trustworthy an MMMMMM "I never said that!" guarantee is). What I do have a problem with is your endless posturing and lecturing. If you want to dish it, be willing to take it. [ QUOTE ] When I post information about certain subjects, you may be asssured that I have strong reason to believe that what I post is essentially accurate. [/ QUOTE ] So is racism dead? Sometimes your 'essentially accurate' stuff openly contradicts other 'essentially accurate' stuff you've posted. Who's to know what's true? [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] ...I had to. But seriously, color me unconvinced when 'accurate' and 'MMMMMM' appear in the same sentence. It's like 'O.J.' and 'innocent' - just doesn't feel right. [ QUOTE ] I didn't spend nearly half a century reading A LOT to no avail. [/ QUOTE ] Well, I disagree, but okay. I'm sure there was some avail; perhaps not as much as you'd like to think, though. You seem to get all your periods and commas in the right place, anyway. [ QUOTE ] Nor do I care how you view my opinions or if you view them credibly. [/ QUOTE ] For someone who claims not to care, you sure do alot of whining about how my responses are sarcastic. Maybe that's just your way [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
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#37
10-05-2005, 08:42 PM
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Re: Our man reveals his true colors...
Hi Hetron,
You will notice that I expressed that scenario conditionally. Actually, quite a parlay of adverse trends and developments would have to occur before I would actually advocate such a course of action. It could happen, though. [ QUOTE ] it is so very INTERESTING to me that you propose going in and "molding" the middle east instead of just suggesting leaving the whole region alone. Do you feel that Islamic fanaticists would lose their preoccupation with the west if we lost our preoccupation with their oil? [/ QUOTE ] No, the Islamic fanatics would not lose their preoccupation with the West if we lost our preoccupation with their oil. Firstly, the only reason they have any sort of substantial economy at all, is because we buy their oil. Otherwise their GDP would be just terribly, terribly small--and even with the massive oil sales, it is not large compared to other Western countries or regions. So we do help their economies tremendously. Of course, it is a mutually beneficial arrangement. And yes, much of those revenues are concentrated amongst the ruling powers in the Middle East. Yet without those revenues the region would be far poorer still. Secondly, the principal reason the Islamists hate the West is for religious reasons. The words of Zarqawi and bin-Laden make very clear the religious component to all of this, and this undercurrent is ever present. Their specific stated grievances are just add-ons to the basically religious fanatical theme of hating infidels, democracy, and anything that runs contrary to prely Islamic religious rule. The problem with just "leaving the Middle East alone" is threefold: 1) if left alone it will continue to fester and produce more virulent anti-Western propaganda and hatred, a la the Saudi Arabia worldwide ideological campaign, 2) Nuclear weapons in the future hands our fanataical enemies such as Iran, could be disastrous, and 3) the current state of the Middle East is entirely deplorable with regard to human rights and especially women's rights. I can't feel morally OK with just allowing many millions to be so oppressed if there is anything within reason which we can do to help the causes of freedom and human rights--and I would hope that you can't, either. However, as mentioned above, quite a parlay would have to occur before I would actually advocate a Western war against, and occupation of, such countries as Iran, Syria and Saudi Arabia.
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#38
10-05-2005, 08:45 PM
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Re: I\'ve been Thinking
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Whatever, DVaut1. Have a good life. [/ QUOTE ] Well thought out and comprehensive answer to DVaut's points I always knew reading sharpened the mind. Frank [/ QUOTE ] Hi Frank, I'm no longer willing to draft well-thought-out and comprehensive answers to DVaut1's posts, because it appears to be a never-ending process with him. My interactions with him always seems to end up with him attacking me in some sort of ad hominem manner, together with his asking for more "well-thought-out and comprehensive" responses. If I provide him such a response, another such attack and request will follow soon thereafter. So, there simply is no longer any point. I also suspect that for him, this process is more important than the actual ideas being exchanged. That's just my own personal suspicion, though (and I think he does this with others too, although to a lesser extent). That's why I wished him a good life--and if you're not careful, Frank, I may wish you one too;-) [/ QUOTE ] Well, wishing me a good life is better than putting a curse on me [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I'm sure you and DVaut1 have been going at it for a long time, and I bet you continue to do so [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] Frank
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#40
10-05-2005, 09:03 PM
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Re: I\'ve been Thinking
[ QUOTE ]
So-called "fundamental" Islam is spreading, and more moderate (or less fanatical) Muslims are often unwilling to speak up against it, in part due to fear of repercussions. Moreover, the fanatical or fundamentalist elements have the literal text of the Koran on their side......... ..........Very tricky and dangerous times ahead. [/ QUOTE ] What happens when we substitute 'Christian' for "Islam" and 'Bible' for 'Koran'? Yes, indeed......Very tricky and dangerous times.....right now.
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