Navy Seals vs Army Rangers vs other special forces vs UFC

[The Truth]

In hand to hand combat, who would you bet on. Which group of trained fighters.

I would have to say the UFC guys. After all, they fight hand to hand for a living, it seems like they would be the best in the world.

From what I understand of special forces training, the hand to hand combat part is usually a really condensed version of what the UFC guys get. Seals do it for a month or 2, UFC guys train it for life?

Had some discussion about it before, figured I would pitch it here.

blake

[Reef]

Hands down the UFC guys will win with little to no contest for obvious reasons.

But if the question was "who is more badass", then there might be a debate

[The Truth]

[ QUOTE ]
Hands down the UFC guys will win with little to no contest for obvious reasons.

But if the question was "who is more badass", then there might be a debate

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I dont think the UFC guys would be much competition in the "who is more badass" category. We would have to take them out and just discuss special forces units.

blake

[ScottyP431]

RE:All

UFC guys might not stand as good of a chance if killing your opponent is involved/allowd. For example, seals are not trained to get their targets to "tap out", but they are trained to kill in unarmed combat. The idea that special forces get a cliffs notes version of UFC techniques is... musguided at best. In UFC there are a lack of eye gouges, through attacks etc.

[slickpoppa]

[ QUOTE ]
RE:All

UFC guys might not stand as good of a chance if killing your opponent is involved/allowd. For example, seals are not trained to get their targets to "tap out", but they are trained to kill in unarmed combat. The idea that special forces get a cliffs notes version of UFC techniques is... musguided at best. In UFC there are a lack of eye gouges, through attacks etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Gimme a break. It doesnt take training to know how to gouge somebody's eyes out. And how much time do you think special forces actually waste trainign to kill someone with their bare hands? They carry guns for a reason

[ScottyP431]

Slickpoppa,

Eye gouging was an example, but yes, there is a significant amount of training required to learn how to quickly deliver lethal blows while not dying yourself. Even UFC'ers who are associated with ex-seal training programs (i think it's Hess or someting like that, does commercials for SCARS) admit they cant use 90 percent of what they learn in UFC combat due to the stringent rules. I don't think special forces "waste" any time training, but I know they spend much more on it than you apparently think. Do 1 minute of research and comeback when you have some idea what you are talking about.

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
UFC guys might not stand as good of a chance if killing your opponent is involved/allowd. For example, seals are not trained to get their targets to "tap out", but they are trained to kill in unarmed combat.

[/ QUOTE ]
They train the SEALs to use weapons almost the whole time. UFC guys train to use unarmed combat all the time. The UFC guys will be much better at applying what they trained in because it's all they train in. It'd be like asking who'll be a better marksman, a SEAL or some random UFC guy. You train how you fight and fight how you train.

[ QUOTE ]
The idea that special forces get a cliffs notes version of UFC techniques is... musguided at best

[/ QUOTE ]
What I've heard from those who've taken military unarmed combat is that while it's good for PT and developing a comabative sense of mind, it is not all that useful. Why? Because these guys probably will never fight unarmed.

[ QUOTE ]
In UFC there are a lack of eye gouges, through attacks etc.

[/ QUOTE ]
So? UFC guys are just as capable of gouging an eye.

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
RE:All

UFC guys might not stand as good of a chance if killing your opponent is involved/allowd. For example, seals are not trained to get their targets to "tap out", but they are trained to kill in unarmed combat. The idea that special forces get a cliffs notes version of UFC techniques is... musguided at best. In UFC there are a lack of eye gouges, through attacks etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's true that sport fights are very very different from real fights.

[ScottyP431]

BC,

You say "think about why do seals go for more training".

Umm, im guessing its because they are interested in that kind of thing, not because they are worried they will meet a UFC fighter in a bar one night. If I was a seal, i would probably try to learn everything possible in case i had to try and fight for my life. Regardless, it proves that they train more than you think, and that many seek out techniques you seem to think are isolated to the UFC.

"Who is hess"
John Hess, fought in the UFC around 95.

"The techniques used by UFC fighters were not developed for the rules of the UFC."

True, but that is what they focus on when training. Kickboxing was not developed for K1, nevertheless... You cant have your cake and eat it to. If who trains the most amount of time= they win, than seals train way more to kill than UFC guys do, even if UFC also have some knowledge of fighting to kill. If it's not total training time, than I will contend killing techniques will defeat UFC techniques. No one has been able to explain what it is about the extra training UFC fighters supposedly do that equips them to defeat someone trying to kill them.


"The rules exist to marginalize the injuries that are inherent in applying such techniques while facing 100% resistance. "

Agreed, the rules are INTENDED to reduce injury. One result of such rules, intended or otherwise, is that a certain style of fighting is the most effective that would not be if the rules were removed. A point you continually ignore. If there are no rules, grappling goes out the window, submission holds go out the window. Try and break the arm of a man trying to kill you so you can then defeat him when he has only one arm and he will kill you before you do.

"UFC fighters train in techniques that without rules would kill the other fighter. Moreover, they train to apply these techniques against people who are fully resisting. Can you say the same about the SEALs?"

What? You think seals train to fight peole cooperating with them? I'm pretty sure they are aware of the concept of "resisting". And no , UFC fighters do not train to deal with 100 percent resistance. They train to deal with resistance that occurs within the confines of the UFC rules. If your claim is "you cant practice really eye gouging someone" than yes, perhaps a seal has never carried their move to fullfillment in real life. I fail to see the impact to this claim.

"How do they train groin attacks, eye gouges etc with full resistance? How sure can we be that they will apply them correctly and effectively when such resistance occurs? We can't."

Well, things like Krav Maga are scientifically designed to inflict the maximum damage despite resistance, and to utilize the way your opponent attacks you to minimize his ability to defend himself. While some UFC'ers also train with these kind of things, i highly doubt they do it as much because it is USELESS to them in their chosen profession.

Also, you try to characterize my argument as if I am saying "seals can groin punch, so there". While that is one example they are trained in a variety of lethal techniques. You say define lethal, well, a blow to the kneck can kill you, a blow to the back/side of the head can kill you, a proper strike to the nose can cause immediate brain damage, blows to the spinal chord can paralyze instantly. Do you really not know what i am talking about? I think you do. Unfortunately, its not enough for a UFC'er to know theoretically that you can kill someone by hitting them in the neck, you need to know the techniques involved. It's possible that UFC'ers know this. If it is true that UFC'ers know all seal techniques and would use them in the fight than it is really seal vs seal though isnt it?

"Again, why do you believe such techniques exist? My guess is you have little to no experience with NHB training. Groin/eye/kidney attacks have always existed."

I believe they exist because i have read about them, discussed them with seals, seen them demonstrated and because i have no reason to believe this is a giant conspiracy.Always existed- Yes they have. But killing has become more scientifically efficient, see Krav Maga point above. And while UFC fighters probably have a cursory understanding of these moves, it is not what they are spending their time on training.

"And you know what? Even though the rules say that you can't strike the opponent's groin, guess what? It still happens."

Is your contention that this is equivalent to a no rules assault on your vital organs/areas? Again, reducing my argument to "junk shots". And if it is your contention that UFC fighters can tough anything out and just continue fighting you are being naive and ignoring the scientific aspects of fighting. No matter how big of a badass you are, get hit in the RAS (i think i referred to it as RAC earlier, which was wrong) and you are unconscious. Pain from a pressure point strike will literally inhibit your ability to think.

[housenuts]

the ufc guys would win hands down. it is their job. hand to hand combat is like maybe 1/16 of special forces members jobs.

you have to keep weight classes in mind as well. i would surmise that bigger special forces guys would be able to beat down on light weight ufc dudes