Let's get it started: USA vs. Europe

[hetron]

Enough of the right wing people on this forum trashing of Europe and the "European nanny state". If things were so bad over there, we would be seeing tons of immigrants from Western Europe these days. That immigration isn't happening, generally because people from there don't want to leave to come here. Obviously the nanny state ain't doing too bad.


Forget for a second about the world of theoretical economics where "socialism must fail" and other talking points we hear bandied about on this forum. Let's talk about what is really going on.

I would like to haer some observations from people who have spent significant amount of time living in both Europe and the US make a comparison between the two. Here are some things I noticed in terms of differences between the two.


The average European works to live, the average American lives to work. On average I would say European workers are happier working less hours, with more frequent vacations, in exchange for a slightly lower salary in comparison with their american coworkers.

What's wrong with that? If you make more money but don't have time to enjoy spending it, what's the point.

Both Americans and Europeans have high tax rates, but more of the European tax money goes into social programs, rather than defense spending.

Again, what's wrong with that? If I pay high taxes, I want the money spent on good public education and socialized health care. I don't want the money spent on bombs and guns that I frankly don't feel make me any safer.

- more talking points to come! in the mean time, flame away! [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[shots]

While I agree that working too much may be not be the best thing isn't this simply a lifestyle choice? Is there anything stoping people from not working as much in the US? If you're content to make just enough to live on then good for you but if you want to get financially ahed in life and are willing to wrok hard for it that's not really a bad thing either.

Europeen countries don't have to spend as much on defense because they know the US will be there if anything ever happens. If we decided to cut spending on the military and let it dwindle to the status of some europeen countries it would be just a matter of time untill china takes over the world. Also you mention that both pay high taxes but aren't the taxes higher in most of Europe? I'm no expert on this subject but I've always heard from any europeens I talk to that the taxes are ridiculous there.

Overall I would say that if you don't particullarily care about moving up in the financial world you might be better off in europe But if you're the kind of person who is driven and willing to work hard to get ahead you have much more oppertunity to do so in America.

[chabibi]

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If things were so bad over there, we would be seeing tons of immigrants from Western Europe these days. That immigration isn't happening, generally because people from there don't want to leave to come here

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There is no flood of European immigrants because western Europeans are disappearing due to the worlds lowest birthrate and are being replaced by immigrants from the middle east and north Africa

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The average European works to live, the average American lives to work. On average I would say European workers are happier working less hours, with more frequent vacations, in exchange for a slightly lower salary in comparison with their American coworkers.


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i think this also has a lot to do with the low birthrate of western Europeans. Americans want to work hard and earn lots of money to give their kids everything they need and want. Europeans would rather not have kids and get 3 extra weeks of vacation a year

[lehighguy]

The European model works well for the present. But it is unable to adapt. It can't meet the challenge of global capitalism and the inflow of new labor from previously socialist countries (China, India, Eastern Europe). It's anti-immigration stance has also lead to an aging population. The problem with Europe isn't the present, it's the future.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

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The European model works well for the present. But it is unable to adapt. It can't meet the challenge of global capitalism and the inflow of new labor from previously socialist countries (China, India, Eastern Europe). It's anti-immigration stance has also lead to an aging population. The problem with Europe isn't the present, it's the future.

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Agree completely that the current French and German models does not fit the future. The smaller countries though have adjusted. Norway, where I live is much more prepared for globalization than i.e. US (i.e. our textile factories closed down 20 years ago).

The problem which many European countries does not seem to grasp with globalization is that the value of your unskilled labor goes down and thus the fixed wages settlement is senseless since it makes those unemployed. My solution to this is to make all income below $20k annually tax-free.

[lehighguy]

Reading about Ireland, Denmark, and Luxemburg topping the quality of life chart makes me want to look into thier economic systems. I'm really only familiar with the French and German models, and my comments are geared towards them.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

One reason why it has gone smoother for smaller countries is that they historically have been more dependant upon trade and the population in general have more knowledge of its implications.

[kurto]

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If we decided to cut spending on the military and let it dwindle to the status of some europeen countries it would be just a matter of time untill china takes over the world.

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Yes. naturally if we cut spending, the consequence would be China taking over the world.

[sam h]

This is a tough conversation to have because the European countries are quite different in important ways. The larger Christian Democratic countries like France and Germany really face fundamentally different challenges than the smaller Social Democratic countries of the north.

Overall, the larger countries have struggled to adapt more. But it is actually difficult to ascertain why. Take the case of Germany, for example. They have had a lot of economic difficulties in the last decade, and now is coming home to roost politically. But how do we separate the effects of certain policies that people associate with the German "model" and the cost of reunification? This is often overlooked in the German case. For West Germany to have merged with East Germany is almost like the United States merging with Mexico at this point (in terms of economics). It has been so much more costly than anybody imagined, and still the eastern part of the country is almost like an economic dead zone so it will stay costly into the future.

As always the answer is that if you are to take these questions seriously, then you have to get beyond the simplistic "My model is better than your model. Your model is fundamentally flawed" assertions.

No easy answers.

[Greg J]

In his defense everything else he said made sense.