KK - Hand protection attempt

POKhER · #1 10-22-2005, 11:09 AM

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. MP2 posts a blind of $1.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 (poster) raises, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, 2 folds, UTG caps, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (22.50 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 bets, MP3 calls, Hero calls, UTG raises, UTG+1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, Hero calls.

I call as i can't protect my hand at all, and raising will simply bloat the pot. Good or bad? Some may argue i have a equity edge to push, i think it will be affected by the turn card and i can then protect my hand better.

Turn: (14.75 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG bets, MP2 calls, Hero raises, UTG calls, MP2 calls.

Unfortunatly UTG bet out rather than MP2(I give Mp2 more respect for a good hand - UTG is a donk). So i raise for value now even though the card is scary.

River: (20.75 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets, UTG calls, MP2 calls.

Value bet the river, I was debating checking but one unknown and one loose guy both checking i bet out. Im glad when they call.

Final Pot: 23.75 BB

So my question is, Should i had raised the flop? do you play the same? turn/river ?

numeri · #2 10-22-2005, 11:13 AM

This pot is way too big to protect from anything other than a GSD. I don't get your plan - you don't raise on the flop, and then you raise one of the worst possible turn cards. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] (I realize it's not that bad, since we have the K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], but you're not folding many people in a pot this big.)

Just raise the flop for value already.

sean c · #3 10-22-2005, 11:15 AM

That flop smooth call was pretty bad. You were given a chance to face the majority of the field with calling two bets cold and you didn't do it? Shame on you.

POKhER · #4 10-22-2005, 11:27 AM

I had a redraw to second nuts flush, Im probably ahead, any of these could have an ace(GUTSHOT).

if i raise the flop, Then bet out they have odds. If the 3 hit on the turn and i lose im sure you lot might chime in with "Ah you failed to protect your hand".

Seanc -
Facing a field with 13:1, you call that protection? From what? 3outer? hell, not even a 3outer.

The turn was a bad card, But i had to raise for value as my protection failed due to UTG bet.

lets see what the carpels say...

page 164 SSH is actually similar to this i think

MrWookie47 · #5 10-22-2005, 11:43 AM

We just recently had a similar debate. Sometimes, by raising the flop, we can induce people to make incorrect folds. However, asking them to fold a gutshot is different from asking them to fold overcards. It's a lot easier to fold the latter incorrectly if you have an medium overpair to a low board, as was the case in the previous thread when this debate came up. Overcards might fold incorrectly according the the FtoP because they fear a PP higher than both their cards, or domination. In this case, you fear an A, and evan a naked A has 7 outs against you. You won't be able to make an A fold incorrectly when facing them with aggression in this case.

The question is, though, are you ever going to be able to protect your hand? You have a terrible position to try to protect with either a c/r or a regular raise, and the pot is gigantic anyway. I'm thinking that this is a situation where you can't protect and should just be raising for value. Which spawns a new question: Do yo have the equity to raise the flop, or should you wait and raise a safe turn?

In this case, you fear A's and 3's, and to a lesser extent 6's and spades. That's not all that much fear, so I don't see the need to wait to the turn to exploit a larger edge. I think I raise the flop for value while I'm sure I have the best hand.

sean c · #6 10-22-2005, 11:49 AM

Pokher some hands play themselves this is one of them. FWIW you will not find anyone in this forum much less a carpel who thinks you played this hand correctly. I don't have SSH in front of me but i will read yor hand example when i get home.

POKhER · #7 10-22-2005, 12:04 PM

good balanced response wookie, cheers.

Part of poker is making opponents make mistakes, we all know that.

I figure although very few cards affect me, giving them odds to draw is not great so i figure hand protection is best. I was pretty confident Mp2 would bet, but i guess as i posted the result of UTG betting its easier to say "you played it wrong" as opposed to not knowing the results.

maybe i should have cut the action off there. Anyhow, im going to read hand protection and return to this thread later on to see what debate if any is continuing.

Ill post results maybe later, But there not really important win or lose.

See what others have to say

numeri · #8 10-22-2005, 12:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
page 164 SSH is actually similar to this i think

[/ QUOTE ]
Hero's hand, the pot size, and the draws available are all similar.

There are some key difference:
1) You have a limp-cap PF from UTG who could possibly pull the same stunt again.
2) You are in position and hence can only give the field incorrect odds if MP2 bets into you again on the turn and if MP3 folds and if UTG doesn't C/R the field on the flop bloating the pot even more.

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW, here's the hand from SSH:

Preflop: We have K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] in MP.
2 limpers, say MP1 raises, we 3-bet, button CC 3 bets, blinds fold, limpers call, MP1 caps, everyone calls.

Flop (21.5 SB): T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
checked to MP1 who bets, we raise - everyone is now offered 24.5:2 - plenty of odds to call with GSD.

Turn (20.5 BB): 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
checked to us, we bet and offer 21.5:1 odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
If we wait until the turn and all goes as planned....

Flop (21.5 SB): T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
checked to MP1 who bets, all call.

Turn (13 BB): 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
checked to MP1 who bets again, we raise - we now offer 16:2 and give everyone else insufficient odds to call with a GSD.

[/ QUOTE ]

sean c · #9 10-22-2005, 12:34 PM

Pokher you could have cut this off at the action to you on the flop. I will keep this simple. Why did you raise pre flop? Easy answer right? Okay so what has changed on the flop to turn this into a call vs raise? Like i said i am not at home but i am sure someone here can go to pokerstove and calculate our flop equity against four random hands. Answer both questions think about this some and let me know what you think. I am not trying to be harsh just trying to help.

POKhER · #10 10-22-2005, 01:12 PM

hand protection from gutshots. This is the whole point of my actions.