Limp-Reraise with AA/KK in EP

[BoxTree]

Some background:

I play 400 NL live at Commerce. I'm a tight player. I'm also somewhat new to NL ring games. So I use the words "never" and "always" a lot. That's okay for now because that's actually how I play and how I intend to play until I gain more experience in this game. In early position, I'm extremely tight. I never raise AK in EP. I never raise JJ-77 in EP. I sometimes raise QQ. I almost always raise AA/KK.

Against observant players, this seems like suicide since they'll always know what I have. Against players who aren't paying attention, I'm still not that excited.

Basically, I'm a big believer that AA/KK are strongest when they get all of the chips in preflop (or enough chips in preflop that you're going to push on any flop). If I raise preflop and get called in at least one place, I now have to play a relatively large pot OOP, and for much of the hand, I'll have no idea where I am. A good, tricky player may try to make a move on me. A crappier player may have two-pair or better. A really crappy player with a lot of chips may overplay his TPTK, and then I have the unpleasant dilemma of figuring out if he has TPTK or a hand that's really worth pushing (top two, a set, etc.). All in all, a preflop raise in EP with AA/KK just seems to bloat the pot, open up bluffing opportunities for my opponents, and basically make my life miserable.

On the other hand, there's limping. If I limp, get raised anywhere, I'll put in a re-raise and either take down a small but not insignficant pot (probably somewhere between 5 and 15 big blinds depending on number of cold-callers/limpers), or I'll get called, in which case the pot will generally be so big relative to the stacks that I'll push any flop. If I limp and no one raises, then I get to play a small pot OOP. That's fine with me. I stand to lose a very small pot or win a medium-sized one. Occasionally, I'll get involved in a large pot, but that will usually happen only if I end up with a monster (flopping the nut flush draw with aces or hitting a set against someone who has a good ace or king).

So, given that I raise so rarely in EP, I really think that limping (with the intent of reraising) as a DEFAULT play should work well in my games. It's true that my games are not generally aggressive enough that I can plan on getting in a preflop reraise. But right now, I'm not convinced that I'm really giving up much by limping and having a five, six, or seven-way flop. The players at my table are generally bad, but they're not idiots. After a few orbits, it becomes quite obvious to most players at the table that I'm tighter than most. If I choose to raise with these hands, I'll often win the blinds. That sucks. Wouldn't it be better to try a line that allows me to build a huge, HU, preflop pot? And am I really giving up that much if I don't get to limp-reraise? Remember, I'll simply take down the blinds a large portion of the time that I raise in EP.

Am I missing something here?

A few additional considerations: I'm relatively new to NL ring games, so I don't mix up my play very much. Currently, I'm very predictable. But until the regulars get to know me better (and until I become more comfortable with this game), I don't mind being predictable. I'm still in the early learning phases of this game. As time goes on, I'm sure I'll have to mix things up by occasionally raising in all positions with a reasonable range of hands. But not right now.

So, all things considered, is my plan of limping in EP with AA/KK suicide, slightly -EV, slightly +EV, or the best thing I can do right now?

Please keep in mind that I play 400 NL LIVE at COMMERCE. Most games are generally passive preflop with one or two players who like to put in reasonable preflop raises about 15% of the time (so, about 1 in 4 hands are raised preflop). Most unraised pots are four, five, or six way. Most raised pots are uncontested, HU, or 3-way (occasionally four-way). The same players who like to raise preflop are the ones who are most likely to launch a bluff on a later street.

Any thoughts are appreciated.

[yvesaint]

no way, at a passive table, im definitely going to be the one to put in the raise pf. figure out who is a calling station, who is more willing to play back at you, and who calls/raises with only strong hands.

if the pot is only being raised 25% of hands, im definitely raising rather than going for the lrr. 4, 5, 6-way pots? ugh, id much rather concentrate on reading/evaluating one guy's bets, especially live.

see who calls your bet, and adjust accordingly. loose-passive? value bet all the way. tricky aggro? perhaps bet flop, check turn. value bet river. look at the board. play some poker.

[Percula]

You have put a lot of thought into this. I understand where you are coming from, but you need to reopen you're line of thought here. From the overall "sound" of this you are playing scared or near enough to it that the end result is the same.

Here is a quick hand from last weekend playing 5-150. I am UTG with AA and raise to 25, UTG+2 a pretty solid and thinking player, but tends to be way to ABC calls and we go heads up to a J high drawless flop. I lead for a little less than the pot sized bet and he RR max. Took me a minute or two, but I folded and he showed me the top set.

I think most players in that game would have been jamming the pot there, many of the posters here would have been too. Hell normally I would be too. But I played the player. I had enough table time with him to know how he played his sets and what his likely range was cold calling an UTG PFR. I have played enough lives hands period that I knew a pair of any rank was no good here and I got away from the hand cheaply, a hand that likely would have stacked most players in that game.

When I get to a table I play pretty cool, ABC until I get a feel for the game, the action and the people. Once I am comfortable and confident, I am raising anything from my EP.

I think the bottom line is you need to be more flexable and play more period. The more hands you play and I mean really play, thinking it all the way thru, even if you are not in the hand, the better off you will be. Start watching live at the bike too. It really is a good tool to see how people are playing live. And since they normally cast at least one 3/5 300-500 NL game a week, that is right up your alley.

[BoxTree]

Thanks to both of you for the comments. I'll definitely check out Live at the Bike.

Okay, so now that I'm willing to raise with AA/KK in EP, shouldn't I add some other hands, too? If not, they'll always know where I am. So, I presume I should occasionally raise with AK/AQ? Since there are 32 ways to make AK/AQ and 12 ways to make AA/KK, I should be able to raise AK/AQ about 1/3 of the time to create the needed deception. Is it worth it to raise a hand like JTs or a small pocket pair about 10% of the time, or will this not help with deception and/or just get me into trouble? I could see how the small pocket pairs could show huge value but medium suited connectors might not.

[lapoker17]

dude - that 400 game is soft. i understand that this is new to you, so you are being cautious, but you need to be raising qq, jj, tt and ak utg for sure - maybe 99 some - you are giving away too much currently. then, naturally, you need to add some connectors and such a smallish percentage of the time. there are enough donks calling utg raises with hands like QJo in those games that your earn will go up significantly by simply expanding your range.

[Rick Nebiolo]

Blending your early position raises and limps well matters once you play against the same opponents often (and they are observant).

For example, you usually want to play small pairs in this game up front for a limp (in games where there isn't too much raising, and keep in mind limp folding after a big raise is OK). If you mix in some limp reraises with big hands you protect your limps with these hands somewhat.

BUT...if you try the limp reraise move with aces or kings AND there is no raise behind you AND you end up with several opponents you don't want to easily lose your entire stack (if it is big) with an overpair. If big money is going in postflop with a drawless board, you are usually behind unless you have excellent reads.

Also raise more with the hands laPoker17 mentions, usually raise with the two biggest pairs but mix in some limp reraises. You may want to limp reraise with AKs also, depending on stack size.

~ Rick

[BoxTree]

Regarding small pairs, Ciaffone and Reuben recommend folding 55-22 unless you're on the button in an unraised pot. Basically, they're looking to avoid the unlikely but expensive set-over-set scenario. But C&R are writing about much bigger (and presumably harder) games than the 400 NL at Commerce. So...I should still be able to show a good profit by limping with any pocket pair in EP (and using the 5/10 rule to decide whether to call a raise)?

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
So...I should still be able to show a good profit by limping with any pocket pair in EP (and using the 5/10 rule to decide whether to call a raise)?

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps with the tiniest pairs you may want to be a bit more careful in situations where your extremely deep stack is exposed to a very good player with another extremely deep stack, but otherwise you want to play them if the preflop price relative to other stacks is right.

~ Rick

[BoxTree]

Okay, thanks, Rick. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Pocket deuces, here I come!

[amoeba]

people need to be less afraid of limp reraise gone wrong getting limped around. its not that bad.

its much better than raise to 5xbb, get called behind me 5 or 6 ways.