15-30 flop decision

[Michael Davis]

My first hand in the game. Mike l. is under the gun and limps. Two more limps and the cutoff raises. I have QhQc in the BB and threebet. All call and the preflop raiser caps.

Flop 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

I check, mike l. bets, one caller, preflop raiser raises, I...

Also I think mike's supposed mania will get overblown in this thread, since he doesn't play like a maniac when I'm in the pot, at least not once I enter it.

-Michael

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
My first hand in the game. Mike l. is under the gun and limps. Two more limps and the cutoff raises. I have QhQc in the BB and threebet. All call and the preflop raiser caps.

Flop 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

I check, mike l. bets, one caller, preflop raiser raises, I...

Also I think mike's supposed mania will get overblown in this thread, since he doesn't play like a maniac when I'm in the pot, at least not once I enter it.

-Michael

[/ QUOTE ]

Wish I knew more about the button limper. If you were experienced looking at players other than those you see on a CRT or LCD you wouldn't even need to play a hand to tell if he was likely insane aggro, a tight old man or an average LA lunatic.

Anyway, I'd lead at the flop. For all mike and the other limpers know, your three bet out of the blinds is stronger than the button's initial raise and cap (since many caps with position seem to be "what the heck" caps). Now a raise or even call from mike and the button might tell you more about their strength.

Given you didn't lead, you might want to consider folding. The combination of mike's bet, the limpers call, and the button raise strongly indicate you are up against a draw or two, a probable overpair, and possibly a big hand by mike l. or even the limper. Although the pot is big, there's a long way to go, and this vulnerable overpair hand screems "reverse implied odds" i.e., you are unlikely to profit from substantial turn and river action. If you had the queen of diamonds, you would have a much better play. That said, I'd have trouble finding the fold at the table and perhaps the forum will think I'm nuts to even bring it up.

Let's say you play. Just calling doesn't necessarily slow down the action since mike or the limper can reraise profitably on basic draws, and three betting sort of gives your hand away as an overpair. You don't want to be marked with an overpair when the board is this scary. If I couldn't sensibly fold, I'd go with the call and see what happens.

~ Rick

[lil feller]

I think you have to 3 bet here, and I don't think its close.

I'm sure you'll get mixed responses on checking the flop. I think you could argue it either way. I'd like it more w/ AA or KK, as there are many less cards to be concerned with, and you can probably count on a bet.

Betting isn't great either, as you'll probably never face the field with a 2 cold decision, which this hand certainly needs to do on this board.

As it it turned out, the 2nd bet came from the perfect spot, and i'd be worried about waiting for the turn. Not only are there a lot of cards you really don't want to see, but the button might be waiting for one of them and won't bet if checked to on the turn.

Gotta 3 bet.

lf

I'd 3 bet to put maximal pressure on Mike I. and the caller's probable draws. If the CO has AA or KK and caps, it just sucks, but that's poker and I think you have to call down unless the board gets too scary.

[onegymrat]

Hi Michael,

Looks like a botched check-raise attempt by you, which I would do the same? And Mike L. knew that and bet into the raiser expecting him to raise, to put the pressure on you. I would have to either dump the hand or 3-bet. However, although I've never played with Mike L., I think he expected this play from you and either flopped a monster draw and wants to juice the pot, or just an attempt to drive you out which he will contently fold to a 3-bet. Either way, I would take my chances going over the top, since I play a hand about once every hour nowadays.

[Victor]

so mikel bet a flop into a pf capper with another solid player 3bettin pf. seems like MONSTER........

[andyfox]

What button?

"You don't want to be marked with an overpair when the board is this scary."

Could you elaborate on this Rick? Thanks.

[Victor]

mike either has a set or a monster str+flush draw. his action on the turn will make it clear what his hand is.

also, you gotta worry that the pf capper has aa or kk. i dont think i would be willing to put in multiple bets on the turn.

[andyfox]

Here's a vote for not nuts. I too, though, would have trouble folding here though I did fold pocket queens in a very similar situation the other day. The river action told me I had made an error; that is, that I was ahead when I folded on the flop. But I'm 99.9% sure I was behind on the river. That's likely the problem with this hand; as you say, there's a long way to go.

mike never raised pre-flop despite two opportunities and now bets into a capper. Now that I think of it, I think I would find a fold, rightly or wrongly.

[andyfox]

Capper would seem to be almost guaranteed to bet a raggedy-ass flop. Would mike really want him to scare out others with a monster? Or is a semi-monster more likely?