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  #1  
Old 05-09-2005, 06:49 PM
barry.egan barry.egan is offline
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Location: baltimore, md
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Default Rule/Ethics question

I'm a lurker here and am mainly a limit player who dabbles in NL, but this is a question for the NL folks. Sorry if all the detail is too much but I think it's important given the situation.

It's a 2/5NL (200min./No Cap buy-in) It's mostly HS/college kids (so everyone's buying in for 300 or 400) with little or no casino experience, so the only knowledgeable players are myself and a house man who's propping.

Villain 1 is loose-aggro and is pretty short ($145). Villain 2 is loose passive PF and loose-aggro ATF and has me covered. I have $371.

I'm dealt QhQd in utg+2.
UTG (Villain 2) limps, 1 fold, I raise to 30, 4 folds, action comes to the sb(Villain 1) and here is where the dilemma begins...

SB thinks a second and then asks what I have. I shrug, and he says he might have to call. Now I'm not usually a coffee-houser, but with an exploitable player I can be. I tell him that he should just go all in. ENTER THE LIMPER. "You call, I call!" Now this is something completely different than my verbal action, and is technically cheating, but I'm pretty sure I want the calls so I don't say anything at all. SB says "I might as well push," and cuts his entire stack into the pot. BB folds and limper announces "I call," whereupon I immediately move all in. Now the limper looks up and seems not to have realized that the sb had moved all in for 170 and says that she wasn't calling that. But based on the fact that I have already acted after her and that sb semi-announced his all-in the dealer first and then I almost on top of him announce that she has to call the sb's raise. Lots of back and forth, lots of "this is some shady sh!t", and finally the house man says that he will allow her to fold to the all-in but she must put the original $25 raise in the pot, I don't protest. With the option to do this or call the all-in, she reluctantly CALLS THE ALL-IN(???). And I again immediately push. She acts surprised, hems & haws, and then very aggressively calls and turns over JTo. I say "Nice call." and table my hand.

Now, my question is just about the ethics of the situation and how others feel about each party's actions. I personally feel as though I did not push any real angles and that the real problem the SB not following the action. But, the SB did not see it in the same way and said that I would only push for the correct ruling if I had the hand that I did and would not have spoken up had I been holding a weaker hand. I know the ruling I asked for was correct under the circumstances, but given that it took place in a local Baltimore B&M card room I did not dispute the compromise. I feel as though I acted correctly and would simply like other's opinions. Thanks for reading all the way down if you got here.

Just for the sake of the game here's how the hand played out...

Pre-flop: Villain 2 limps utg, 1 fold, Hero raises to 30, 4 folds, Villain 1 raises to 145(all-in), Villain 2 calls, Hero raises to 371(all-in), Villain 2 calls.

Flop ($887):
J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Turn ($887):
3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

River ($887):
8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Final Board ($887)
J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Hero: Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] One pair, Queens
Villain 1: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] One pair, Jacks
Villain 2: J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]10 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] One pair, Jacks

Hero wins $887 with one pair queens
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  #2  
Old 05-09-2005, 07:26 PM
TheWorstPlayer TheWorstPlayer is offline
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Default Re: Rule/Ethics question

I think that your actions are fine by the letter of the rules. Only you know, however, if it is worth potentially ruining (or at least tainting) what is otherwise a very good game apparently by pushing hard like that when it may APPEAR like angle shooting.
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  #3  
Old 05-09-2005, 07:48 PM
barry.egan barry.egan is offline
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Default Re: Rule/Ethics question

I totally agree, which is why I didn't push it when the option was giving about calling the original raise and folding. But either way she didn't leave and steamed off most of her chips.
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  #4  
Old 05-09-2005, 08:59 PM
piggity piggity is offline
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Default Re: Rule/Ethics question

[ QUOTE ]
SB says "I might as well push," and cuts his entire stack into the pot. BB folds and limper announces "I call," whereupon I immediately move all in.

[/ QUOTE ]

If this is the way it happened, there really is no room for dispute.
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  #5  
Old 05-09-2005, 11:49 PM
AlexM AlexM is offline
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Default Re: Rule/Ethics question

It seems to me that you got robbed with the ruling, although it did end up working out fine. As for the ethics of it, I personally don't consider it ethical to tell someone they should go all in, but if they start trying to trick you into revealing something about your hand first, they deserve whatever they get. On the other hand, the limper stating what he intended to do before the other person had made a decision is definitely terrible poker etiquette and possibly cheating.
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  #6  
Old 05-10-2005, 10:19 AM
HajiShirazu HajiShirazu is offline
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Default Re: Rule/Ethics question

I think if this the type of player who will call an all-in with JTo you should just let them do what they want and not complain here since they probably don't get what's going on anyway.
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  #7  
Old 05-10-2005, 11:28 AM
sniperd sniperd is offline
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Join Date: Jan 2004
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Default Re: Rule/Ethics question

I have a home game with a pretty regular crew. Usually 1 new person though, or a few that have not played in casinos. I don't think you did anything wrong at all. I run the game (and play in it) and have a lot of casino experience, as do a few of the other guys. So we try to play very much by the rules.

""You call, I call!" Now this is something completely different than my verbal action, and is technically cheating,"

Yep, if this happend in my home game, everybody would put up a big fuss. We have a rule, "No talking about the hand while it's going, unless: heads up, and your in it." At first people wanted a more loosey goosey game, but then as messed up situations occured, people quickly realized, "Hey, those rules really help the game." So, I would just try and encourage the host to try and keep the rules tighter, however if he thinks he would lose people (people that get all in with JT, haha) then maybe it's worth having it be lossey goosey! However I think you would lose more people if the game felt 'shadey' then if you were a rules nazi.
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