live 10-25 hand with deep stacks

mikech · #1 10-24-2005, 12:36 AM

10-25 game at borgata last night, i thought this was a pretty interesting hand where maybe i should've made different (better?) decisions on every street. villain in this hand had about 7k, i had him covered. after a limper, he raises to 75 in mp, button calls, i call with A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] in the blind. so there's ~300 in the pot, 4 of us to the flop and it hits me hard: T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. i lead for 200, limper folds, villain calls, and button calls, ~900 in the pot. turn is an offsuit 7, what now?

mgsimpleton · #2 10-24-2005, 12:43 AM

depending on read... would they ever smooth call with a set here? are they decent? if they're the fishy not laying down type or the slowplaying set type i like a check call and c/f unimproved but against normal people who might bet to protect a queen here i reallllly like a c/r all in. either way check, you might get a free one and you should be able to push someone off a queen IMO... unless they wont lay down a Q, then check call.

mikech · #3 10-24-2005, 02:42 AM

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are they decent?

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no. villain is one of the worst players i've ever played with, and does some of the goofiest, most indescribably mind-boggling stuff i've ever seen. i love him.

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if they're the fishy not laying down type or the slowplaying set type i like a check call and c/f unimproved

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i think you nailed it. he's def the "fishy not laying down type" so check-call is probably the better option. but at the same time, he has a lot of money in front of him, and i'd like to build a big pot so i can stack him if i hit.

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against normal people who might bet to protect a queen here i reallllly like a c/r all in. either way check, you might get a free one and you should be able to push someone off a queen IMO

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really? c/r all-in for 7k? seems like overkill just to push someone off a Q.

durrrr · #4 10-24-2005, 02:44 AM

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i reallllly like a c/r all in.

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jesus... why? even uf villain full pots ths almost a 3x pot raise.

Ulysses · #5 10-24-2005, 02:45 AM

I think this is an interesting and tough hand, made especially tough by the stack sizes.

Given your description, I think I like check-calling the most. Probably lead a heart, check-raise a King.

mgsimpleton · #6 10-24-2005, 11:45 AM

blah, my bad. stacks too deep to c/r all in. that beind said i think you don't have enough outs to make a bet you know will get called to build the pot. 12 outs to the nuts... it isn't 15, and even that small difference i think is important. i would check call.

only difference is if he will think you have hearts if you check call maybe it cuts down implied too much. if it's better in terms of the guy, i might bet small, then we he raises, think for a while, then call as if you "think he's bluffing." if you take this line it will build the pot better and make a c/r easier. if he has KQ and you spike your K or if he has more than one pair this line should win mucho money against donky donks.

otherwise default check call. you can't always stack everyone ya know! [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

mikech · #7 10-24-2005, 11:51 AM

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I think this is an interesting and tough hand, made especially tough by the stack sizes.

Given your description, I think I like check-calling the most. Probably lead a heart, check-raise a King.

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this seems like the best line given how i got to the turn. how about the flop? instead of leading, a strong c/r probably gets a Q to lay down, no? although i'm not sure how i'd proceed if my flop c/r is called and the turn is an offsuit 7.

as the hand actually played out, i fired again on the turn for 700. villain raised to 3k straight. button dropped and it was 2300 more to me with about 4k left to play for. (i didn't get an exact count; cash plays in this game and he had a mix of chips and a wad of paper, but around 4k was right.) he's capable of weird random bluffs but i've never seen him make that big a raise before when someone has clearly represented a lot of strength, so i'm very sure he actually has a huge hand this time.

mgsimpleton · #8 10-24-2005, 11:59 AM

well then looks like 10 outs not 12, but i would call and stack him. it's 2.3k to win a 7k pot (these are pot odds) plus another 4, so 2.3k to win 11k with 10 outs? sounds great. spike a good card and don't let it be a board pairing heart. but yeah im sure you realize in retrospect but either leading less or check/calling are probably slightly better. look at the bright side though, you built your pot!!!

mikech · #9 10-24-2005, 04:12 PM

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well then looks like 10 outs not 12, but i would call and stack him. it's 2.3k to win a 7k pot (these are pot odds) plus another 4, so 2.3k to win 11k with 10 outs? sounds great. spike a good card and don't let it be a board pairing heart. but yeah im sure you realize in retrospect but either leading less or check/calling are probably slightly better. look at the bright side though, you built your pot!!!

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actually, my immediate odds are 2:1 (he stumbled into making an almost exactly pot-sized raise). there's only 4600 in the pot, 2300 to me, 4000 behind. i did build my pot though: with the implied odds i suppose i should call, but i think he'll need to stack off about 90% of the time for it to be +ev.

what do you think about c/ring the flop? stack size might make it awkward to play a turn blank, however.

durrrr · #10 10-24-2005, 06:40 PM

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I think this is an interesting and tough hand, made especially tough by the stack sizes.

Given your description, I think I like check-calling the most. Probably lead a heart, check-raise a King.

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I agree, but if 2 people (hero and some1 else) check call the turn, and a heart hits the river i think i c/r allin. If only I was the only caller i lead the river.