raising second pair flop vs bb raiser+turn problem,

pacific 2/4$ full ring:
hero is mp2,bb new to the table raised pf once in 4 hands.
hero calls 66 mp2 after 2 post dead, but calls,bb raises, 1 dead folds, 1 calls, hero calls,but folds.
flop: Tc 5d 2s
bb bets, dead folds, hero raises, bb reraises, hero calls
figured he leads with pairs and at, any thoughts on the flop raise?
turn: Td
bb checks, hero bets, bb raises, hero calls
thoughts on the bet+call? (assume behind when he raises though he might ch/r fl draw?)

[W. Deranged]

You've put in way too many bets here.

The idea for a hand like this is to figure out the most efficient way to do the following things:

1. Determine if your opponent just has overcards, and to charge an opponent with that hand the maximum.

2. Determine if your opponent has a big hand, and try to get away from the hand without major spewing when you're badly beat.

You are correct that this is a pretty good flop for your hand, and folding in what is a decent sized pot is not a great idea.

I think two options are pretty good:

1. Raise the flop, with the plan on probably just folding to a flop three-bet, or to bet the turn if called and check to (folding to a raise).

2. Call the flop and raise a safe turn card.

#1 has the advantage that you only cost yourself 1 BB if behind, but you risk losing more if your opponent calls your raise and gets cute on the turn, and put yourself in the position of maybe folding the best hand if villain will three-bet the flop with a hand like AK (note you don't have a great read here).

#2 has the advantage that it may charge a bit more from AK. You can fold easily to a turn three-bet. It also is nice in that if an A or K comes on the turn, you can simply fold the turn only having invested 1 SB. The tough part is that this line pretty much commits you to putting in 2.5 BB on this hand; it's essentially the same as committing to a showdown.

In general, I think #1 is a bit better if you are confident that your opponent is not that tricky.

You're real big mistake here was calling the turn check-raise. I think betting the turn is even not that good once the T comes, because it seems unlikely AK or something like that will fold even once that hand comes, and after the flop three-bet you seem likely to get check-raised.

[molawn2mo]

Pretty interesting litlle hand....

pf is fine

flop, without any decent reads on BB, can be argued as a fold, call or raise, imo

but first, as played, i think i fold to the flop 3 bet and make a real mental note on this opponent; this, wanting to check his showdown hands very closely. Most people calling the flop 3 bet are doing so to "save face" and will fold (after a long wait) when villain leads the turn. Save your sb and fold to the 3 bet.

Another option of calling the flop and the turn should a non A or K turn is viable.

Folding the flop is not retarded though with a better backdoor draw I would continue.

I think I like raise/fold the flop.

[W. Deranged]

It was a big advance in my game when I realized I didn't need to call the flop bet to "save face."

Ed Miller's maxim of not folding to one more on the flop is something I think I took a little too far... It's important to not get labled a target in live games, but folding here online is fine.

[molawn2mo]

That "realization" is soooooo freeing to one's game.

I might liken it to attaining satori or experiencing a moment of enlightenment. I think you know what I mean, Will.

[Redd]

I think that everything I could add to the hand discussion has already been added, so I just want to say that this is a very helpful, well-written thread for a common problem. IMO the whole discussion thus far has been top notch.

thanks alot guys!!!
i actually won the hand sucking out (river is 6, he bets i raise, he shows at and goes berzerk), but knew/felt i had lots to think of from it. your replies really gave me LOTS of food for thought, THANKS!