Should I have gotten the point...

#1 08-08-2005, 03:56 PM

On the 3-bet flop that I was behind? Or did I have good reason to call this one down? I think he checked the river fearing a made flush.

*edit* no read on the table , this was one of my first hands at the table

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
3 folds, MP1 raises, 2 folds, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, SB calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls.

Flop: (10 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, MP1 calls, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, MP1 folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (8.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

River: (10.50 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 10.50 BB

NickRegino · #2 08-08-2005, 03:59 PM

I'm fairly sure you are behind, unless you know he will bet that 5 or 3 and be aggressive as he will to bet the J. I think laying it down to the 3-bet is ok, or you could have use WA/WB.

krimson · #3 08-08-2005, 04:00 PM

Any reads on sb? Hard to comment on this hand without a read. If he's an unknown I'd probably fold to the 3-bet.

#4 08-08-2005, 04:01 PM

yeah, i am gonna edit the first post, this was one of my first couple hands. no read

W. Deranged · #5 08-08-2005, 04:02 PM

I don't like laying it down to the three-bet. You'll be getting like 15-1 on a call, and you can probably make up the difference (about 4 BB) necessary to call purely for set value. The real reason not to fold, though, is that it's the same thing as putting a big old bulls-eye on your head. Force your opponents to raise the turn to get you to go away. This is like the one metagame lesson Ed mentions really stresses in SSH.

cdxx · #6 08-08-2005, 04:55 PM

definitely WA/WB situation. anyone like a flop cap and fold to a turn lead?

W. Deranged · #7 08-08-2005, 04:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
definitely WA/WB situation. anyone like a flop cap and fold to a turn lead?

[/ QUOTE ]

WA/WB should be reserved for hands that are less vulnerable to draws.

cdxx · #8 08-08-2005, 05:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
definitely WA/WB situation. anyone like a flop cap and fold to a turn lead?

[/ QUOTE ]

WA/WB should be reserved for hands that are less vulnerable to draws.

[/ QUOTE ]

point taken, but what about the line? it looks to me that the villain bet into the draw and checked when the third club hit.

now imagine we are on the flop again. if he is chasing the flush, how could he call the cap and lead the turn? but if he is on AA-JJ or AJ, how could he not lead the turn? doesn't that tell us everything we need to know?

W. Deranged · #9 08-08-2005, 05:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
definitely WA/WB situation. anyone like a flop cap and fold to a turn lead?

[/ QUOTE ]

WA/WB should be reserved for hands that are less vulnerable to draws.

[/ QUOTE ]

point taken, but what about the line? it looks to me that the villain bet into the draw and checked when the third club hit.

now imagine we are on the flop again. if he is chasing the flush, how could he call the cap and lead the turn? but if he is on AA-QQ or AJ, how could he not lead the turn? doesn't that tell us everything we need to know?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're misapplying the WA/WB idea.

In fact, this is very much different from that because there is the potential that we are up against draws. For WA/WB to apply, we really need to know that both us and villain are unlikely to improve our hands. So, WA/WB usually refers to lines of play that involve playing fairly passively in situations where the overall situation is unlikely to change.

Here, a lot can change.

As for your line, think about how often villain is playing a worse hand. What hands, other than flush draws, does villain play like this that we're beating?

This hand is similar to BigEndian's TT hand, in some ways. There, we concurred that it's probably pretty easy to fold the turn once villain has shown aggression beyond our flop raise. There are some important differences but I wonder if similar concepts apply.

cdxx · #10 08-08-2005, 05:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]

As for your line, think about how often villain is playing a worse hand. What hands, other than flush draws, does villain play like this that we're beating?

This hand is similar to BigEndian's TT hand, in some ways. There, we concurred that it's probably pretty easy to fold the turn once villain has shown aggression beyond our flop raise. There are some important differences but I wonder if similar concepts apply.

[/ QUOTE ]

well, it's almost like the other TT hand, except K indicates a much broader range of hands the villain could play preflop (such as AK, KQ, or KJ), and there's a second overcard on the flop. plus the villain came into the hand cheaply.

i understand why you want to stay away from WA/WB nomenclature, and i am never mentioning it again in this post. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] i simply think that a cap would actually tell me a lot more about whether the hero was currently A/B.