Interesting live 40-80 decision

[jdock99]

I was at the table during this hand but wasn't one of the participants. However, one of the players had a very interesting decision on the flop that comes up pretty frequently so I wanted to see what you all would have done in this situation. A tight aggressive player raises UTG. It is folded around to the button who 3 bets. This player is a fish, but in a loose, passive way, so he definitely had a BIG hand to be 3 betting in this spot.

The small blind, who is a tricky, aggressive postlop player but slightly loose preflop then called 3 bets with AhJh. Then the big blind, who is a little weak but very, very tight called 3 bets and the original raiser just called. Ok, so here is the situation, you are the small blind AJs and you are against 2 very tight players, one an UTG raiser and the other who called 2 cold on the BB and a passive fish who just 3 bet on the button.

The flop then comes 5h6h9c. So you know have the nut flush draw, however, with the players in the hand and the way it has gone down preflop there is about a 0% chance that your ace out is any good, and a very small chance the jack out is good as someone (most likely the button) is bound to have a very high pocket pair. So what do you do. Do you lead out, hoping a high pocket pair will raise and clean up your ace outs, or do you check, planning to check-call to keep the other players in and get volume, or do you check going for a check-raise against the button to try to push out a bigger ace to again clean up your ace outs?

So the dilemna is whether to play your draw hard in such a way as to give you another 1 or 2 possible outs (in a pot that is already very big) or do you play passively to get volume on your nut flush draw and possibly go for the checkraise on the turn or river if the flush comes in.

If there is interest, I will post the results later, if not I wont bother.

[mike l.]

"Ok, so here is the situation, you are the small blind AJs and you are against 2 very tight players,"

no. im not. i used to be but then thousands of dollars lost later im not anymore.

that said the play is check and let pf passive 3 better bet and then checkraise and hope to get the others out.

[jdock99]

Guess it wasn't that interesting.

[brick]

Mike answered the question perfectly.
Fold preflop. Check-raise the flop if you mis-click.

[DanS]

[ QUOTE ]
"Ok, so here is the situation, you are the small blind AJs and you are against 2 very tight players,"

no. im not. i used to be but then thousands of dollars lost later im not anymore.

that said the play is check and let pf passive 3 better bet and then checkraise and hope to get the others out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Heads up, out of position with the worst hand, against a guy with a low PFR % and who has the tendencies of a tenacious caller? F that, mike. You know that.

You and I are similiar. We play our worst poker when we outthink ourselves.

[lil feller]

[ QUOTE ]
Mike answered the question perfectly.
Fold preflop. Check-raise the flop if you mis-click.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really don't like the c/r on the flop, unless it will induce the button to both just call the flop, and possibly check behind on the turn. I think we can narrow the buttons holdings to AA, KK, or QQ. Thats about it. We're probably going to lose one of the other players anyway, but i'd hate to get 3 bet by the button, and have to call a turn bet. I don't know the math, but is it worth risking the other small bet to try and clean out 2 outs that might not be good anyway?

lf

[Seether]

Misread the number of people in the hand so my analysis was uselss

[SA125]

[ QUOTE ]
The flop then comes 5h6h9c

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not the guy you're looking for an answer from but, aside from the merits of the call, I think it's a good question on how to play the flop.

With AJh and that board, you're not folding. I don't want to be a coldcaller to what will probably be some fireworks on the flop. And I don't want to c/r anyone out either.

So with no outs other than my fl draw, I'd lead and have them wonder wtf do I have. Set, draw, or 2P. Anyone one of them could be played by leading or c/r'ing and I'd rather lead. Then again, it's a 40 game. What do I know.

[brick]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Mike answered the question perfectly.
Fold preflop. Check-raise the flop if you mis-click.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really don't like the c/r on the flop, unless it will induce the button to both just call the flop, and possibly check behind on the turn. I think we can narrow the buttons holdings to AA, KK, or QQ. Thats about it. We're probably going to lose one of the other players anyway, but i'd hate to get 3 bet by the button, and have to call a turn bet. I don't know the math, but is it worth risking the other small bet to try and clean out 2 outs that might not be good anyway?
lf

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that if pre-flop 3-bettor will never re-raise with AK or TT then raising doesn't do much.

[jdock99]

Ok, this is how the hand went. On the flop everyone checked to the button, who bet. Small blind called, and other two players called. Turn brought a brick club, putting 2 hearts and 2 clubs on the board. Everyone checked to the button who bet again. Small blind and big blind called, and UTG raiser folded. River brought an ace. It is checked around. Small blind shows AJh, big blind shows AQc, and button disgustedly shows QQ. To make matters worse for him, the UTG raiser who folded on the turn said he had AK, and because he is a very TA and raised UTG there is no reason to doubt him.

So looking back at how the hand went with the cards up in hindsight, if small blind had checkraised the flop with his nut flush draw, BB & UTG would have probably folded and button would have undoubtably 3 bet. The small blind would have therefore put in 2 extra small bets to clean out 1 out. In addition he would be pushing out 2 callers, screwing up his odds on the flush draw.

If the small blind had done this he probably would have won the pot, but was this alternate line +EV??