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  #1  
Old 12-15-2005, 11:48 PM
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Default 4-8 at Cammerce. Am I a donk?

Ok so its 4-8 live and man is my table soft. So im in the BB with an AA34 nice and offsuit and i get like 5 callers so I raise it up. Someone in MP reraises behind a couple ohters and everyone calls and I cap it with a total of 6 people seeing the flop. 24 sb in the pot! So flop somes a beautiful little 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. I checked and it got all the way to the button who bet. Ok now heres where i go into the tank. As far as i see it I have 3 options. 1. Fold but id really rather try and catch runner runner str8, nut low, A, etc. 2. Call and hope that i dont have to deal with a check raise/ 3 bet by the time it comes around. or 3. Raise. I dont figure to have the best hand with AA but if everyone else with 1 pair and a runner runner low has to cold call 2 bets on a dangerous str8 like board they might drop out plus i can catch the runner runner low, probably a board pair on one of the cards, or an A or i might even have the best hand. So i raise? = first question. It worked anyway and everyone drops out to the button who gives me a little look. So the turn comes a Q but i make a bet because im a tard at this point and i figure there to be a little bit of fold equity and i think that if I check id have to call a bet anyway. So the river card is one of 2 cards I wanted to see at this point, a 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and im real happy bout that because i have the best 2 pair now and i make a confident value bet? Ok so i played this hand a little unorthodox but do you think that it was unorthodox brilliant or donkey?
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Old 12-16-2005, 12:27 AM
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Default Re: 4-8 at Cammerce. Am I a donk?

This seems fine to me. Of course, you're folding to a raise on the river if it comes.

I should mention I'm not really a limit player, so you may catch rage from others.
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Old 12-16-2005, 01:28 AM
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Default Re: 4-8 at Cammerce. Am I a donk?

Hmmmm. I'd neither raise nor cap this preflop - although I can see the argument at least for the raise. In this position I'd rather raise high cards for deceptive value than AA34o.

Nothing wrong with a fold on the turn here, although your play is certainly more entertaining. By the time he has called a bet on the turn I wouldn't bet the river. I think you'll see jacks (or, less likely, 9s) full of 7s a lot of the time. Many limit players will bet trips and then go into calldown mode until the board pairs when you represent the straight. And in such a big pot you have no chance of folding a better hand. I'd check/call the river (and wouldn't like making the call but difficult to fold for one bet on that size pot).
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  #4  
Old 12-16-2005, 05:53 AM
SteveY SteveY is offline
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Default Re: 4-8 at Cammerce. Am I a donk?

not sure about the pf raise

I think the turn might be a check fold. I guess it would depend on what the button's pf standards are. i think from the kinds of hands that would call preflop that have a jack in them and bet the flop, most of them benefit when the queen comes. We would have to hope that he had KKxx, JTxx, AJxx, KJxx, QTxx. Plus some of the hands that fall in this category still beat you (KJTx, QT9x, etc) Just from guesstimating, i think there are too many more hands that beat you at this point to continue. This is just my intuition though.
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  #5  
Old 12-16-2005, 09:57 AM
steamboatin steamboatin is offline
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Default Re: 4-8 at Cammerce. Am I a donk?

The pot is giant, you don't check/call?

If I capped preflop and check raised the flop, then I am definetely firing on the turn. If I check the river, I am inviting a bluff so I absolutely call one bet. In a situation like this, you don't have to be right very often to make the crying call on the river profitable.

The Villian probably has a good hand but there is a chance that He was chasing a low so your river bet only gets called if you are beat and you have to call a raise for one more bet in a pot this size. So the river bet has no value IMHO.

I don't like the preflop raise so you can deduce my opinion of the cap.
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Old 12-16-2005, 11:35 AM
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Default Re: 4-8 at Cammerce. Am I a donk?

Time for results I guess:
He never flipped over his hand because I led into him and hence you can deduce that I won that big'ol monster pot when he called. I still think that my river bet was decent for value (because im a savage or a donk) but if he raises I definately start to vomit all over the table. I should add that this guy when he called on the turn was visible unhappy to do so so I did not put him on, as an example, JJ or 99. I think that in retrospect he probably had jacks with some sort of draws on the turn.
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  #7  
Old 12-16-2005, 07:52 PM
SteveY SteveY is offline
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Default Re: 4-8 at Cammerce. Am I a donk?

yeah you are right steamboatin, i didnt think about pot size. so we cant fold, then I think firing again on the turn is better then.
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  #8  
Old 12-17-2005, 05:43 PM
Buzz Buzz is offline
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Default Re: 4-8 at Cammerce. Am I a donk?

odomination - You played perfectly on the second betting round! If you check, you don't have to make a decision until the betting gets back around to you.

Then as it turns out, everybody else ahead of Button checks and Button bets, creating an ideal opportunity to get one-on-one with an opponent who may have made a positional bet, hoping to steal the pot with everybody folding, maybe having some oblique semi-bluffing fit with the flop, perhaps merely a pair plus a back door low or back-door flush. (And as it turns out, a positional bet by Button after this flop seems to have been the case).

At any rate, you opportunistically raise and succeed in getting one-on-one with Button, who very possibly does not have much of a fit with this flop. Beautiful.

If the betting had gone otherwise after you checked the second betting round, you presumably might have check/folded on the second betting round. (You don't have to make the decision whether to check/raise or check/fold until everybody else has acted). Anyway, it worked out well this time. Unless Button actually has a good flop fit, you're surely ahead. Let's run some sims.

I have AA34n ahead against a random hand 54.5 to 45.5 after this 79Jn flop.

If Button has flopped the straight (8TXY) Hero is way behind, 13.7 to 86.3.

Or if Button has a set, say JJXY, Hero is also way behind, 20.1 to 79.9.

But there's no guarantee Button has either one of these hands. When you don't immediately get re-raised, things are looking up.

Then you bet the queen on the turn and if Button didn't flop the straight or a set, then Button has to be concerned that you did. And when Button doesn't raise on the turn, you're looking very strong because Button almost surely does not have the straight (but still might have flopped a set, perhaps middle or bottom set).

I think the river bet is more to keep your actual holding secret than a value bet. When the board pairs on the river, if Button flopped the straight, would Button pay off? hard to say, but I don't think Button flopped a straight because of the lack of a re-raise on the flop plus the lack of a raise on the turn.

However, you're cooked, if Button did flop a set - and if Button has some other hand that won't beat your two pair, you don't collect because Button doesn't pay off. But you bet so that you don't have to show if Button doesn't have you beat. Fine, but if you really thought you had the winning hand, you might have done better by checking the river. That way Button might have bet into you and you could call and pick off the bluff.

[ QUOTE ]
so i played this hand a little unorthodox but do you think that it was unorthodox brilliant or donkey?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think it was unorthodox play. Instead I think it was opportunistic play, and well done on the second and third betting rounds!

I think you can raise or not with this hand on the first betting round, depending a lot on how you play other hands (and on how your opponents play).

Just my opinion.

Buzz
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