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  #61  
Old 10-06-2005, 12:35 PM
MMMMMM MMMMMM is offline
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Default Re: I\'ve been Thinking

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If this wasn't obvious already (if you've completely missed the point here), what specific verses DO and DO NOT support is entirely a matter of interpretation, and not a matter of reading comprehension.



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Your presumption on this point is very inaccurate.
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  #62  
Old 10-06-2005, 12:37 PM
MMMMMM MMMMMM is offline
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Default Re: I\'ve been Thinking

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I suspect you'd have a hard time finding many Muslim scholars who feel that the verses you've cited INSTRUCT followers to kill, attack, and make war upon idolaters. Maybe a few.




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NO. You're just presuming that. How would you feel if you were to find out otherwise?
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  #63  
Old 10-06-2005, 12:41 PM
vulturesrow vulturesrow is offline
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Default Re: I\'ve been Thinking

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It is not given in the historical sense (as is much of the Old Testament)

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I would just point out that there is a not insubstantial number of Christians who wouldnt agree with this statement.
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  #64  
Old 10-06-2005, 12:43 PM
warlockjd warlockjd is offline
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Default Re: I\'ve been Thinking

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That's why I wished him a good life--and if you're not careful, Frank, I may wish you one too;-)


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This sounds like a Mason joke. Anyone else get that feel?
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  #65  
Old 10-06-2005, 12:45 PM
DVaut1 DVaut1 is offline
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Default Re: I\'ve been Thinking

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Anyway, how could one read the most obvious verses cited in this thread, without considering them unequivocal commands?

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They're translated from Arabic into English; as I've said, the few Muslims I've met and spoke with about the Koran feel that all translations of the Koran are imperfect, and don't capture it's true meaning. So who I am to disagree? I don't know Arabic. I'll take their word for it.

So my answer is that many Muslims (with vastly superior levels of knowledge and education about such things than you possess) have arrived at entirely different conclusions, and don't share your interpretation of the Koran.

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No, the reason most Muslims don't go out and do those things is because they have better things to do, and are decent people. It's not like a huge portion of the Muslim population (of those who have actually read the Koran) think the Koran doesn't contain those instructions.

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How could you POSSIBLY know this?
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  #66  
Old 10-06-2005, 12:50 PM
MMMMMM MMMMMM is offline
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Default Re: I\'ve been Thinking

Which part of the statement, Vulturesrow?
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  #67  
Old 10-06-2005, 12:52 PM
DVaut1 DVaut1 is offline
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Default Re: I\'ve been Thinking

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If this wasn't obvious already (if you've completely missed the point here), what specific verses DO and DO NOT support is entirely a matter of interpretation, and not a matter of reading comprehension.

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Your presumption on this point is very inaccurate.

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Really? Care to explain?
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  #68  
Old 10-06-2005, 12:53 PM
vulturesrow vulturesrow is offline
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Default Re: I\'ve been Thinking

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Which part of the statement, Vulturesrow?

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That any part of the Bible is given in a historical sense.
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  #69  
Old 10-06-2005, 01:14 PM
MMMMMM MMMMMM is offline
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Default Re: I\'ve been Thinking

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Anyway, how could one read the most obvious verses cited in this thread, without considering them unequivocal commands?

[/ QUOTE ]



They're translated from Arabic into English; as I've said, the few Muslims I've met and spoke with about the Koran feel that all translations of the Koran are imperfect, and don't capture it's true meaning. So who I am to disagree? I don't know Arabic. I'll take their word for it.

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ACPlayer once posted a similar objection, so I thereupon went and found a Muslim website containing three different translations of the Koran, each by a Muslim scholar who was also a Muslim. I posted all three versions of the verses in question. While the translations were not identical, the general meanings were about the same. So I believe I have effectively answered this objection in the past. ACPlayer's response? Because he didn't speak Arabic himself, he would not accept them. Lol. So much for trying to argue or discuss with someone whose mind is already made up. Facts can be unwelcome distractions, to some.

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So my answer is that many Muslims (with vastly superior levels of knowledge and education about such things than you possess) have arrived at entirely different conclusions, and don't share your interpretation of the Koran.

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But this is not an accurate portrayal; the most radical imams are also among the most deeply studied in Islam; they have essentially lived, studied and breathed Islam their entire lives. And their conclusions are what we would call "fundamentalist" doctrine. So why not take their opinion instead of mine? The Muslims most highly educated in Islam are frequently among the most radical as well. By the way, if you'll go read some of the many many sermons transcripted on www.MEMRI.org , you will see that "fundamental"-style Islam is not unpopular or unusual at all--and neither are "radical" imams.

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[ QUOTE ]
No, the reason most Muslims don't go out and do those things is because they have better things to do, and are decent people. It's not like a huge portion of the Muslim population (of those who have actually read the Koran) think the Koran doesn't contain those instructions.

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How could you POSSIBLY know this?

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Because I've read so extensively on this and related subjects over the last half-dozen or so years, that I feel I can offer this as a generally accurate asssessment.

Of course there also exist many lay Muslims who don't really read the Koran much, and there also exist apologists who try to couch the violently aggressive verses in the Koran in more soothing terms. But the verses are really quite plain; and most imams worldwide would agree with that assessment.

Again, please see www.MEMRI.org for transcripts showing what many important imams REALLY think--not what you might presume they think.

I suppose you might give some credence to the past or current opinions of the head imam--or past head imams--of the Grand Mosque in Mecca--the most important Islamic preaching position in the world? Go to MEMRI, do a search, and read transcripts of those sermons to find out what he thinks about many such things. Then read some more transcripts by other notable imams, if you want to know what REALLY is considered Islamic thought, by those with knowledge and authority.
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  #70  
Old 10-06-2005, 01:21 PM
MMMMMM MMMMMM is offline
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Default Re: I\'ve been Thinking

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[ QUOTE ]

Which part of the statement, Vulturesrow?

[/ QUOTE ]



That any part of the Bible is given in a historical sense.

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Well that's surprising to me.

Do you mean NONE of it? Is that your view too?

What about all the historical descriptions of events, at least?

And what about the parts of the New Testament that supersede the Old Testament--doesn't that render certain things from from the Old Testament moot or obsolete? For instance, certain directives given by Jesus. People no longer need practice animal sacrifices, forgive one's enemy instead of an eye for an eye, etc.

Some elaboration would really pique my interest here.
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