Simple flop question

[Chris Daddy Cool]

[ QUOTE ]
Betting out the flop is wrong IMO becuz if I bet out the flop, I am giving the middle guy a good price to stay in the hand for just one small bet

[/ QUOTE ]

if you're the guy in the middle you're not going to agree with this statment becuase if he calls this donk bet he should readily call a raise behind him, which is why i like leading these kinds of flops sometimes with draws or weak made hands because even though the guy in the middle is getting good immediate odds, he has to assume his odds are going to be cut a good deal because he is not closing the action with the pfr behind him.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Betting out the flop is wrong IMO becuz if I bet out the flop, I am giving the middle guy a good price to stay in the hand for just one small bet

[/ QUOTE ]

if you're the guy in the middle you're not going to agree with this statment becuase if he calls this donk bet he should readily call a raise behind him, which is why i like leading these kinds of flops sometimes with draws or weak made hands because even though the guy in the middle is getting good immediate odds, he has to assume his odds are going to be cut a good deal because he is not closing the action with the pfr behind him.

[/ QUOTE ]
Your point is valid, especially if the player in the middle is a decent to good player. I still would rather checkraise to end any suspense of whether he would call with a marginal hand/marginal draw or not. My goal is to get heads up with the preflop raiser who can easily not have a hand, I feel that check raising this flop will accomplish this goal more than betting out will.

[stoxtrader]

checking and raising is a more expensive bluff, and betting can be cheaper.

betting also give you better implied odds on average, and 3 bets go in less often.

[ QUOTE ]
checking and raising is a more expensive bluff, and betting can be cheaper.

betting also give you better implied odds on average, and 3 bets go in less often.

[/ QUOTE ]
Betting out can also be expensive since this line increases the probability that this will still be a 3 player confrontation on the turn, which means the hero will be significantly less likely to take this pot down unimproved.

About the implied odds argument. With a strong draw such as a flush draw in a 3 handed raised pot, I think its better if the hero takes the line that is most likely to win this pot as soon as possible, rather than try to draw cheaply. Just telling you how I approach this situation, not saying your way is wrong and my way is right.

[Surfbullet]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
checking and raising is a more expensive bluff, and betting can be cheaper.

betting also give you better implied odds on average, and 3 bets go in less often.

[/ QUOTE ]
Betting out can also be expensive since this line increases the probability that this will still be a 3 player confrontation on the turn, which means the hero will be significantly less likely to take this pot down unimproved.

About the implied odds argument. With a strong draw such as a flush draw in a 3 handed raised pot, I think its better if the hero takes the line that is most likely to win this pot as soon as possible, rather than try to draw cheaply. Just telling you how I approach this situation, not saying your way is wrong and my way is right.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you expecting the 9 or the 7 to be an "out" that you are cleaning up? I daresay that if you fold them with a c/r, you would have folded them with a donk. At least when you would have been called anyway(whether you bet or c/r, like when an opponent has an A or decent T) you are more likely to get the 3rd player in to pad your equity, since realistically the flush is how you are going to expect to win this pot.

I think your general approach is interesting, but analyzing this particular hand IMO favors a lead, and can be swayed either way depending on how you have played recent hands, and how your opponents would expect you to play an ace.

Surf

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
checking and raising is a more expensive bluff, and betting can be cheaper.

betting also give you better implied odds on average, and 3 bets go in less often.

[/ QUOTE ]
Betting out can also be expensive since this line increases the probability that this will still be a 3 player confrontation on the turn, which means the hero will be significantly less likely to take this pot down unimproved.

About the implied odds argument. With a strong draw such as a flush draw in a 3 handed raised pot, I think its better if the hero takes the line that is most likely to win this pot as soon as possible, rather than try to draw cheaply. Just telling you how I approach this situation, not saying your way is wrong and my way is right.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you expecting the 9 or the 7 to be an "out" that you are cleaning up? I daresay that if you fold them with a c/r, you would have folded them with a donk. At least when you would have been called anyway(whether you bet or c/r, like when an opponent has an A or decent T) you are more likely to get the 3rd player in to pad your equity, since realistically the flush is how you are going to expect to win this pot.

I think your general approach is interesting, but analyzing this particular hand IMO favors a lead, and can be swayed either way depending on how you have played recent hands, and how your opponents would expect you to play an ace.

Surf

[/ QUOTE ]
I see where youre coming from given this board texture. It may seem that a checkraise is unlikley to win the pot since this board is very likely to have hit the raiser. I would still go for the checkraise here though, and heres my logic, flawed or not.

Looking at the preflop action, The button raised after one player limped in....what does this tell me? To me this means that the button can have many hands that missed this board since he could easily have been attempting to isolate the lone limper. Some of the hands the button may have are KQ,QJ,KJ, other weird non-pair iso-type hands, and 99,88,77 and maybe any lower pocket pair that didnt set up. All of these hands will have a difficult time calling me unimproved on the turn.

The action preflop tells me that the button's hand is not that strong which is why I will usually checkraise with this strong of a hand(a flush draw) no matter what the board texture. I also think that if the middle guy doesnt have top pair or a strong draw he will fold which is usually typical. Given that I think there is a higher than normal chance that the button does not have a strong holding even on this board, I do not want to bet out and give the middle guy the chance to call me for one small bet on some weak hand like Tx, or weak draw like any gutshot.

About my 9 or 7 being an out or not. In these shorthanded situations many times the hero will have more outs than he thinks no matter what the texture of the board is since the likelihood of everyone missing the flop is higher than normal. When this is the case, checkraising to get the middle guy out is paramount. And when you add in the fact that a small percentage of the time(maybe 5%)the hero will induce the button to fold a strong hand like Tx or KK unimproved on the turn, this play has even more value. These are the reasons I like checkraising in this situation better than betting out.

[skp]

Depends on:

1. what you would do if you had an Ace in this spot; and

2. what you think your opponent thinks you would do if you had an ace in this spot.

Someone in this thread already said it: Use recent hand history to guide your play. I don't think there is a right answer.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Depends on:

1. what you would do if you had an Ace in this spot; and

2. what you think your opponent thinks you would do if you had an ace in this spot.

Someone in this thread already said it: Use recent hand history to guide your play. I don't think there is a right answer.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. There are a few different ways to play this.

Betting out can look like a draw. A c/r looks like you're trying to protect something. But if you'd play an A the same way by betting out...

UTG is the most likely to fold to your flop bet. He's LAG so if he had an A, he'd likely have raised it preflop. If he just calls or raises, you may have problems to be wary of.

If UTG folds the flop and button calls, it may take to the turn to fold the button as he may expect a draw to check the turn.

Another question is will the Button raise with an underpair to the ace on this flop or will he wait for the turn? Also, how does he react to you betting?

I'd bet out, if UTG calls and button raises then I'm just calling. Then decide what to do on the turn.

You could check call the flop, then bet the turn. Though if UTG is still in there, I'm not sure I'd try that.

b

[oreogod]

couple things imo.

---a bet out faces UTG with a crap situation w/ a pfr behind him, and ace being on the flop. Button in this hand could put u on a draw, if he respects u he may think u are betting a weak ace to generate some action. or maybe mid pair.

---Also w/ a bet out, most likely even if button didnt hit this flop, hes almost always peeling, expecting a check maybe 30-50 percent of the time possibly. He will likely fold to a follow up bet.

---If u bet and UTG folds, BTN may try to go for a cheap showdown by raising flop and betting or checking turn (checking a decent amount w/ an unmade hand...but possibly betting to pressure a possible mid-pair...which would probably be unlikely, I dont think he thinks you are folding much)...so even if your bet does not pick up the pot, u do get to draw super cheap a percentage of the time.

Check-raising could net u the pot possibly, but u also have to account for the times BTN calls and pops turn, 3bets flop and bets turn..etc. BTN is almost never folding the flop to a CR, he's probably peeling a good amount.

--------------------------------------------------------

I had more to add on the C/Ring part but Im falling asleep here so I pretty much forgot what I was going to say. I think the most important thing is your image. Do u look like a lag/donk/tag/kicker-of-ass this session, etc. I think that goes a long way towards giving u your answer. If u have been check-raising all your draws, bet out. If u have been betting/donking more draws then c/r. Mix it up, give him whatever line makes him more afraid u have a hand.

[Paluka]

I don't really like checkraising here. You kill your odds and often get headsup with the guy who isn't likely to fold.