Getting owned; two hands for checkup - Page 2

Catt · #11 03-03-2005, 02:44 AM

But things get very different heads-up or 3-way in possible steal situations. On some tables, I'd raise any two cards from the CO if it is folded to me. On others I'd have some standards. I'd likely find it hard to not raise A7o from the CO in these cirumstances -- I only have to beat 3 possible hands, all of which are random (button, SB, BB). I'll not limp with A7o behind other limpers, nor will I try an open-raise from MP2 -- but from CO this is hard to avoid raising.

If SB is a thinking, tough player, then his 3-bet could be a 3-bet with 52o (slight exaggeration) -- he's saying "Don't f**k with me and don't try and steal my blinds" or he's saying "wrong time to steal - you're hosed." If he's not a solid player, his 3-bet could mean a wide variety of things.

When an A flops (and I hold one in my hand) after SB 3-bet me pre-flop, then if my read is that he's a thinking, smart player, I might be inclined to call his flop raise and raise the turn after he bets out. I'm not giving him credit for an A in this situation whereas I might in a hand in which there was no pfr and 3 or 4 limpers to the blinds.

Short-handed or HU play is a lot different than many-handed play, especially so in full ring games where it is folded to the CO or button. I don't even have any 6-max experience but I know this to be true.

Mate0 · #12 03-03-2005, 02:49 AM

Ok I realize i'm treating this situation like there have been limpers, but Catt... wouldn't he have to be an extremely hard thinking player to 3 bet you on the flop... I mean that takes a lot of guts. So therefore in your average pot you're probably not ahead.

Catt · #13 03-03-2005, 03:00 AM

If I were SB and I had a read on the CO raiser that he would aggressively steal, I might 3-bet this flop with almost anything and then lead the turn, too (another exaggeration -- my point is that I might play back at CO with a total flop miss). I might be spewing an extra BB or two in this instance, but if I'm planning on playing at this table for a bit, or otherwise think I'll run into the CO at other tables over the next few months, showing that I will not be a juicy target for steals by investing now will pay longer-term benefits. I've played back at this sort of action with hands like Q3s where my suit misses -- and I'm convinced after studying hand histories that doing so in the right circumstances is a longterm +EV play.

SCfuji · #14 03-03-2005, 03:22 AM

SC,

im sure we butted heads at pokerroom as i did the deposit and the reload bonus all within the past four days. the feeling i got from pokerroom were that they were either tight passive or loose passive, but most when they got a rock solid hand would 3-bet. there was the occasional maniac or tilted player or just plain donk, but most of the passives would fight back at me when they had a solid hand. i even stopped capping hands like JJ pf against certain people, because the strength of hands they fight back with is very high at PR. i got tons of respect when i played but if i raised and somebody had KK they would retaliate like none other and i would lose most of the time.

hand 1 looks fine as long as the limper that checked folded.

hand 2 i dont like overcalling with this hand that sb tells you is worthless.

fuji

Reef · #15 03-03-2005, 03:38 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I fold A7o. My minimum is A9o in this position.

[/ QUOTE ]

When it's folded to you in the CO?

Surely you're joking.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think so. I fold A7o here

trainslayer · #16 03-03-2005, 03:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Can you find a fold here? And how was the first hand?

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disclaimer: I'm a .25/.50 player and aint yet decided if I'm all that good or not. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

I limped w/99 and gave up soon after.

I liked the raise w/A7 but would'a give it up early too. But then I remembered a hand I play couple days ago:

I was SB w/A10o, folded to me. I raised. BB immediatly fired back, I called.

I don't remember the flop, but it was blanks for me. BB fired at me agin and I tucked my tail and ran. Shortly thereafter I remember thinking to myself, "nice defend, I'll have to remember that one." (BB was Taggy)

SomethingClever · #17 03-03-2005, 11:26 AM

[ QUOTE ]
But things get very different heads-up or 3-way in possible steal situations. On some tables, I'd raise any two cards from the CO if it is folded to me. On others I'd have some standards. I'd likely find it hard to not raise A7o from the CO in these cirumstances -- I only have to beat 3 possible hands, all of which are random (button, SB, BB). I'll not limp with A7o behind other limpers, nor will I try an open-raise from MP2 -- but from CO this is hard to avoid raising.

If SB is a thinking, tough player, then his 3-bet could be a 3-bet with 52o (slight exaggeration) -- he's saying "Don't f**k with me and don't try and steal my blinds" or he's saying "wrong time to steal - you're hosed." If he's not a solid player, his 3-bet could mean a wide variety of things.

When an A flops (and I hold one in my hand) after SB 3-bet me pre-flop, then if my read is that he's a thinking, smart player, I might be inclined to call his flop raise and raise the turn after he bets out. I'm not giving him credit for an A in this situation whereas I might in a hand in which there was no pfr and 3 or 4 limpers to the blinds.

Short-handed or HU play is a lot different than many-handed play, especially so in full ring games where it is folded to the CO or button. I don't even have any 6-max experience but I know this to be true.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very nice post on hand 2.

tiltaholic · #18 03-03-2005, 11:49 AM

i feel your pain.
can i be the janitor of pwntown? or the poopsmith?

hand one: i think the flop call is on the loose side. you took your shot at the pot...they didn't blink. these types of hands annoy me. looking forward to more comments on this one.

hand 2: i agree with catt. pf raise is good...but what are the reads on button, sb, and bb? this is crucial. if sb is a bad player, then i don't have a problem dumping this hand early. (maybe i'd call the flop, raise the turn) if sb is good/tricky, he could have a lot of hands (and i might just call him down). is bb just calling down to the river with any two, whats his story?

good hands. i feel like these are the ones that hurt during downswings.

SomethingClever · #19 03-03-2005, 11:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
but what are the reads on button, sb, and bb?

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It's really hard to get reads on pokerroom. I can barely follow the action as it is. After the fact, I can say that SB was a solid player, and BB was a tool. I think at a minimum I should have folded the river despite the huge pot. I'm just not ahead of much.

And I agree with people that say I should fold to the flop raise on hand 1. That's probably a leak.