Over use of the slowplay

Recently it seems that I've seen lots of posts where the OP says he called a flop bet/flop raise when they were ahead. The stated reason was because they didn't want to chase other players out of the pot and/or they wanted to keep players in the hand in order to pop them for the Big Bet and/or build the pot.

Now, I will be the first to admit that my experience at the micros is limited compared to Boxlax, Jaxup, Mr.Wookie, Milesdyson, tiltaholic, and numerous others whose analysis and opinions I admire and search out through the various posts; however, that being said, I get the feeling that fancy play syndrome seems to be creeping into some hand posts from some of us newer folk. Specifically overuse of the 'slowplay'.

I'm gonna shamelessly pull some nuggest of info from SSHE regarding slowplaying.

1. Slowplaying is a useful tool in SMALL POTS against players who PLAY WELL after the flop.

2. You should almost never slowplay large pots.

3. Small stakes games are full of players who go too far with their hands. They don't know if you flop a monster and they'll call just as they will when you don't have a monster.

4. Slowplaying is a useful tool against TIGHT PLAYERS

Miller lists 3 questions you should ask yourself before you decide to slowplay. They are:

1. If I give a cheap card with it improve my opponents to second best hand and/or an unprofitable draw?

2. Am I willing to lose a pot or two for an occasional extra bet or two?

3. How likely are my opponents to call if I don't slowplay.

All I'm trying to say here is that we're playing micros. Lots of LPPs and LAG's. Some nights I never see another TAG and maybe one TPP at the entire table. If we've got 4-5 players in the pot preflop, a bet and one or two calls ahead of us on the flop and we're holding a monster, then for christ's sake raise. Enough of these fish will call that this will almost always be the right play. When we flop monsters the correct play is almost always to hit the raise button.

We're not playing serious poker players here. We're playing horrible players who provide us our edge every time they make a mistake. Don't give up too much of you edge by overuse of fancy plays.

Please let me know if you disagree or if you feel I'm off the mark. I hope I'm being constructive.

S

[bozlax]

tl;dr

I'm sure you're right...this topic has pretty well been exhausted in the past few weeks, tho, IMO.

I think you are on the money here Sarsen. I am fairly new to the game but have found that slowplaying is not often a tactic that pays off (I am only playing at .05/.10).

The are two main things I have found by increasing my aggression in the right situations. One is that there are plenty of fish who will call raises, even on the turn and river, with crappy hands. Also I find myself taking down more medium sized pots when people fold in the face of my aggression, and this appears to be helping my winrate. I will be getting PT (and PA HUD) shortly after Christmas which will allow me to analyze this better, but I don't feel at the moment like I have just been running better than average. I have certainly had a below average VPIP of late.

With the range of junk that some people play at micro tables it is hard to know when you slowplay just what cards might improve your opponents hands. The extra suckout risk becomes very hard to factor in. I also find that when I flop a good hand on a very ragged board if I think "the board is so ragged I'll risk giving a free card and hopefully extract some BBs on the turn (and maybe the river)", I find people often just folding where I might have got a couple of extra SBs out of them on the flop. There are a few reasons I can think of why this is so, one of them being that your opponents feel less committed to the pot, and the pot is smaller than what it might have been had I have been more aggressive on the flop.

I'm not sure when to expect (limit wise) that this will change, but where I am at the moment slowplaying rarely seems like a good way to go.

Boz,

I guess my point in posting this was that I'm re-reading SSHE again and I feel like I keep seeing statements in some posts that are alsmost word for word verbatim obvious mistakes that Miller lists throughout the book. And not just about slowplaying.

My intent wasn't to repeat comments about appropriate slowplay in a particular hand but to summarize some valid points that could use some emphasis.

To quote you quoting Gary Larson, in another post
'blah blah blah, ginger, blah blah blah.' My hope was that those of us who are on the learning curve aren't just hearing/reading what you and the other thoughtful players are writing but understanding the concept.

Magellen. Thanks for your comments. Your posts I've read so far have been lucid, well thought out, and much apprieciated.

[bottomset]

waiting for the turn HU is a good play a lot of the time, waiting for the turn in a big pot with a strong hand, but one that can be severly weakened by many turn cards is also often a good play

[marchron]

I'm guessing one of the people you're referring to is me.

As I explained in my most recent post to that thread, I thought smooth-calling the flop and losing out on 1 SB would make my Villain more prone to calling another bet (or reraising) on the big-bet streets when he was likely trailing very very badly.

And given that he wouldn't have folded his strong hand (trips, but with a bad kicker) anyway, I didn't allow him to stay in the pot to hit that longshot draw when I could have forced him out of the pot. He wouldn't have left.

[masse75]

You are correct that most beginners/donks overvalue and overplay the slowplay, not realizing that they're just giving people an excuse to hang around.

I always check 3 things quickly, in line with SSHE guidelines:
Pot size
Board Coordination
# of opponents (the last 2 going hand in hand)

Well, as a complete n00b, I can only say this:
It throws most players for a loop when I actually bet my strong hands. I flop a set, I bet. They call, or better yet, they raise.
I'm trying really hard not to develop FPS. I need improvement on reading some people's hands, so I don't chance that I misread a hand by slowplaying. The most I will do with a monster is wait until the turn or the river to raise if I think it will keep them in the pot. I don't really consider that FPS, I'm just trying to extract the most I can from my hand.
Example: You make a boat on the turn. You're first to act. Bet or check/raise? I usually bet, because I want that call, and I can try for a check/raise on the river. Wrong?