A confusing hand for me, wondering bout agression and wa/wb

glean · #1 05-09-2005, 08:08 PM

Is this hand played horribly?

I only have about 30 hands at this table so no real reads at all. Boath players seem to be fairly loose, but with only a hand or two shown from each of them who knows. The table was sitting at a whoping 45% seeing the flop when I joined 30ish hands ago.

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
3 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 :#A500AF(villan1)/ calls, Hero raises, 3 folds, BB :#A500AF(vilan2)/ calls, MP1 calls, MP2 :#A500AF(villan1)/ 3-bets, Hero calls, BB :#A500AF(vilan2)/ caps, MP1 folds, MP2 :#A500AF(villan1)/ calls, Hero calls.

PF after I raise and get not one, but two limp/reraises I have no idea what is going on.

Flop: (15.40 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
vilan2 checks, villan1 checks, Hero bets, vilan2 calls, villan1 calls.

Flop gives me TPTK and a possible strait draw and plenty of over card/pair worries. I figure I bet and if reraised I'm done.

Turn: (9.20 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
vilan2 checks, villan1 checks, Hero bets, vilan2 calls, villan1 calls.

The two cc's and another strt card and again, no idea where I am. Figure if I check someone is bound to bet this board on the next street as a bluff and I still have a resonable chance mhig. I bet again, with the same plan as on the flop, a ckraise will fold me. Again, two cold calls. No idea where I stand still.

River: (12.20 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
vilan2 checks, villan1 checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 12.20 BB

After I'm checked to on the river with a blank falling I am guessing that I am still ahead, figureing that a bet wins the pot for me right there, but don't want to halve to call a rraise or fold to a bluff. So I check it thru.

Is this a way ahead way behind situation, or did I just make a total mess of this hand?

jrz1972 · #2 05-09-2005, 08:11 PM

I'd bet the river. Both of your opponents appear to be mouth-breathers.

itsmesteve · #3 05-09-2005, 08:16 PM

limp reraises do not necessarily equate to monster. tptk against no aggression is a hand i'd certainly bet on the river.

cold_cash · #4 05-09-2005, 08:19 PM

Pre-flop, meh. Fold, raise, limp, whatever.

Flop and turn are okay.

A river bet is probably good. I think you'll get called by Ace high, 9x, etc.

I just wanted to chime in to say that you're probably neither way nor way behind in this spot.

Think about way ahead/way behind when you think: A) you could be dominated or you're now reverse dominating someone, or B) you have a pocket pair but believe a bigger pocket pair is out. After the flop/turn action it's unlikely a bigger pair is out there, but overcards probably are.

Also, don't fall in love with this concept, especially in multi-way pots.

JohnEPark · #5 05-09-2005, 08:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
but don't want to halve to call a rraise or fold to a bluff. So I check it thru.

[/ QUOTE ]

Board newbie but I'm just gonna start posting as if I know what I'm talking about. I think you must bet the river. If you get raised you have to call, folding to a raise is IMO not a valid option on this river.

jrbick · #6 05-09-2005, 08:31 PM

PF -- SSHE reccomends simply to play ATo. I tend to fold it against any limper at micro-levels. You'd really only want to raise ATs against limpers. If you flop a T, awesome TPTK but if you get it on the Flop you are susceptible to being drawn out. Catch an A and it's OK w/ TPGK (good, not great).

For all other streets I'd play them the same except I'm betting the river. The only hands that make a straight are 67, J6, QJ, and any 7. At this level I'm not sure if these players are even capable of check-raising, but I don't play Stars and maybe they are capable of check-raising. I've bet this river at 1/2 and one time not even the FULL HOUSE raised it (this isn't a great premise, so ignore it). You should think more along the lines that bad players are going to call you down w/ ANY piece of the board. Bet the river.

dedmoney · #7 05-09-2005, 08:48 PM

I' definately bet the river, chances are one of these dopes will call thinking thier As8s is good. That's the beauty of the micro limits. Nothing's better than jackholes capping with suited Ajunk.

Recently, i've been fairly aggressive with AK on the turn and river when and a or k doesn't hit and there are all low cards. Since I raise pf, and come out betting every street, usually (about half) I've been able to wilt these bastards into folding. Sometimes I'll even get called on the river and still win with my AK high. Stuoid fishes.

cmwck · #8 05-09-2005, 08:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]

PF after I raise and get not one, but two limp/reraises I have no idea what is going on.

[/ QUOTE ]

Think about why people limp-reraise. Say you're a bad tricky player sitting in MP and you have AA. It's folded to you, but since you don't want to 'loose any customers' you just call to let other people come into the pot. If someone raises behind you, you then re-raise to trap everyone for an extra bet.
The same can be said if you were sitting in early position.

But in this hand MP1 is allready in the pot, so there's no reason to just limp with a monster hand.
Same with BB ; if he had a monster hand, no way would he just call after two people have called and one has raised.

BB and MP1 are probably pulling this move because they have some speculative hands like suited connectors or low pocket pairs and want to gamble it up. Plus, it is only 25 cents more to cap, so what the hell, why not? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

@bsolute_luck · #9 05-09-2005, 08:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
PF -- SSHE reccomends simply to play ATo. I tend to fold it against any limper at micro-levels. You'd really only want to raise ATs against limpers. If you flop a T, awesome TPTK but if you get it on the Flop you are susceptible to being drawn out. Catch an A and it's OK w/ TPGK (good, not great).

For all other streets I'd play them the same except I'm betting the river. The only hands that make a straight are 67, J6, QJ, and any 7. At this level I'm not sure if these players are even capable of check-raising, but I don't play Stars and maybe they are capable of check-raising. I've bet this river at 1/2 and one time not even the FULL HOUSE raised it (this isn't a great premise, so ignore it). You should think more along the lines that bad players are going to call you down w/ ANY piece of the board. Bet the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

bold section: did you miss type this? or did you mean to put limp? i'm not sure what your saying.

blue section: you gotta get this out of your head. yes, it does matter who's limping, but i'll raise this against 2 limpers in MP3 position against only 2 limpers from MP- i might be more concerned with UTG limpers. part of it IMHO matters who is behind you: can you buy the button and fold the blinds?

jrbick · #10 05-10-2005, 12:08 AM

1.) SSHE literally says "play" (pg. 80; 82)meaning limp, right?
2.) To be more specific, I just fold ATo flat out in EP, open-raise in MP, fold in any position against limpers and/or raisers unless it is the unlikely (for micro-limits) scenario that I have the CO limping in front while I'm on the BTN or something wierd like that. I can see your argument being in MP3 w/ 2 limpers in front, but ONLY if you are certain you can fold CO, BTN, SB, and BB. So I think the reason being why my coach has reccomended playing ATo this way is because you are not clearing the rest of the field and trapping MP1 and MP2 all that often (if at all) in the Micro levels.

This is simply what I have been taught, so I am open to other suggestions if you'd like to present more reasoning behind playing ATo in the way that you have suggested.

JR