what affects roi the most?

[lorinda]

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Anyways...Lori
When you say "bubble" , you do mean exactly 4handed right?


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Actually, excuse my inaccuracy again. Even though that's what it means, I should have clarified that I mean "When the blinds are large and we are not yet in the money" which would usually be 4 handed but sometimes 5-7 handed too.

Lori

[stupidsucker]

ah, so late play. Level 7+ish?

I wasnt sure, because the term bubble is loosely used an awful lot.(I too am guilty). I thought perhaps you meant litteral bubble then, and that does change things a bit.

[pooh74]

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ah, so late play. Level 7+ish?

I wasnt sure, because the term bubble is loosely used an awful lot.(I too am guilty). I thought perhaps you meant litteral bubble then, and that does change things a bit.

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Yeah, # of players left is not important per se, its the blind to stack ratio where money is made.

I voted calls. In 55's I see people calling allins on the bubble with stuff like 22. That's gonna cost em huge.

[MegaBet]

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the answer is bubble play

no matter the level

'what affects roi the most' = bubble play

now, at the 100/200s, 'what is the biggest difference in the roi between player a and b' = early play because most of the players play a good bubble...but if they play the bubble badly, their roi will drop much more than if they play poorly early on...so while early play may separate the good from the great, proper bubble play has the biggest single factor on roi, no matter the limit

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[MrX]

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You can play perfect 4-5 handed SNG strategy and still either get sucked out on by a dumb call or walk into a monster. This is single-handedly the biggest factor in my ROI, even considering the long term effects.

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This is what causes ROI to have a theoretical maximum. I hope you understand the fallacies in your statement though.

X

[jba]

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You can play perfect 4-5 handed SNG strategy and still either get sucked out on by a dumb call or walk into a monster. This is single-handedly the biggest factor in my ROI, even considering the long term effects.

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This is what causes ROI to have a theoretical maximum. I hope you understand the fallacies in your statement though.

X

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do you mean, "this is what causes ROI to have a theoretical maximum in NL party SNGs"??

in other words, I don't even understand why ROI would have a theoretical maximum other than 500% (ie taking 1st every time). for example in a SNG with a longer structure - say the party SNG structure but everyone starts with 2000T - you would obviously expect the ROI for very good players to increase. This makes me think that it is the degree of mistakes made by your opponents, and the degree of mistakes afforded by the tournament structure, that impose a theoretical limit on ROI.

If an expert is playing against 9 typical 10+1 players in a tournament that starts with 10000000T, I would expect his ROI to approach 500%. this in spite of the fact that he will "still either get sucked out on by a dumb call or walk into a monster".

[fnord_too]

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the answer is bubble play

no matter the level

'what affects roi the most' = bubble play

now, at the 100/200s, 'what is the biggest difference in the roi between player a and b' = early play because most of the players play a good bubble...but if they play the bubble badly, their roi will drop much more than if they play poorly early on...so while early play may separate the good from the great, proper bubble play has the biggest single factor on roi, no matter the limit

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Negative. The biggest impact to EV occurs in bubble (or post bubble) play, since on every hand EV changes significantly. Note: I would have to do some math before I could say that bubble, however we are defining it, decisions impact EV more than post bubble.

The biggest impact to ROI will be where you gain the most EV, which necessarily takes into account the comparative advantage one has over the field and the importance of the decision in terms of EV.

Let me give a contrived example to illustrate this. Say there is a population of STT players who will fold everything to a push pre flop until the blinds are 50/100 becuase they refuse to go out when the blinds are so low. They are so adamant about this, they will even fold AA in the BB if the SB open pushes.

Say these same players all play optimally from the the 50/100 level on.

A player who pushes every hand until the 50/100 level will gain ALL of his ROI from the first levels, since he has at best no comparative advantage in the late game.

This shows, I am pretty sure, that it is theoretically possible to have the early levels impact ROI the most.

Now, if you have a good size advantage over the field in the early levels, and a small advantage on the bubble, the bubble will most likely have a greater impact on ROI.

Also, it is theoretically possible to have a bubble disadvantage and still have a positive ROI if your pre and/or post bubble advantage is big enough.

[fnord_too]

Oh, and since there is no real answer (it depends, yada yada yada), I voted for what I thought was closest: calls. The biggest mistakes are made in calling IMO, but also to be successful one has to make good calls. Pushing, unless you are dealing with (or are) an utter moron, will usually not be too big a mistake ever. (Things that get one into the moron category are making really huge overbet bluffs or bets that will only be called by a better hand while not folding any worse ones, bluffing when someone is obviously pot committed and certain to have you beat, etc. When you have FE, and you are not massively overbetting the pot, pushing may be a mistake, but rarely will it be a big one.)

[GtrHtr]

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lol dude

do you not see that bubble play effects ROI more than anything else? at least up to the 33's...

second is definately heads up play, without a doubt


i also agree with what rap said about the early play being key at the 109's...as most of them play the bubble g00t

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I see your point, but after thinking about this more today, I still have to say HU. Bubble play is hugely important for both staying alive and moving ITM and gaining chips to improve finishes. But in many ways that will also simply effect your ITM%.

The one significant thing that effects ROI - the actual calculation we use to identify how much $$ we are making is HU play due to the large difference between 1st place money and 2d or for that matter 3d.