Question to pvn and other anarcho-capitalists

[Darryl_P]

What percentage of the US population do you believe would be better off if the US became anarcho-capitalist vs. how they are today under the current system? I don't just mean economically but in an overall sense.

I believe the answer is between 5 and 10% with me being included in that group (if I were American), and I was wondering to what extent your answer differed.

Thanks.

[Matty]

Well if government = evil, then the equation is simple. Everyone would benefit!

You see this theory put into practice commonly in third-world countries. It's swell.

[tylerdurden]

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Well if government = evil, then the equation is simple. Everyone would benefit!

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Exactly.

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You see this theory put into practice commonly in third-world countries. It's swell.

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I'm assuming you're being sarcastic and you think anarcho-capitalism has failed in practice. Care to back up your statement with some actual examples?

For a given example to be valid, you would have to show that anarcho-capitalism failed in a situation where goverment would have succeeded.

I'm guessing you're thinking about Somalia. And if you are, you're probably thinking of the warlord-driven wasteland that exists in popular thought. We have to note that Somalia got into that situation *because* of government (i.e. civil war).

The warlord problem only existed while UN "peacekeepers" were in the country. Since the UN left, there has been no government, and the results have been impressive, according to people who actually looked into it instead of assuming that reality was still like that movie they saw way back.

http://rru.worldbank.org/Documents/2...va-harford.pdf

Yes, the World Bank, not some biased anarcho-capitalist think tank.

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Somalia has lacked a recognized government since 1991 - an unusually long time. In extremely difficult conditions the private sector has demonstrated its much-vaunted capability to make do. To cope with the absence of the rule of law, private enterprises have been using foreign jurisdictions or institutions to help with some tasks, operating within networks of trust to strengthen property rights, and simplifying transactions until they require neither. Somalia's private sector experience suggests that it may be easier than is commonly thought for basic systems of finance and some infrastructure services to function where government is extremely weak or absent.

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In practice, Somalia's economy is outperforming its statist neighbors. Even roles that many libertarians would leave to government (roads, etc) are being satisfied without government in Somalia.

Further, the report points out that where the market is not fully performing, attempts at intervention by outside government agencies have produced even worse failures.

Given the success of anarchy in Somalia, with it's horrible starting conditions, what could one expect if it were implemented somewhere with a more mature set of starting conditions, such as the US?

[DVaut1]

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In practice, Somalia's economy is outperforming its statist neighbors. Even roles that many libertarians would leave to government (roads, etc) are being satisfied without government in Somalia.

Further, the report points out that where the market is not fully performing, attempts at intervention by outside government agencies have produced even worse failures.

Given the success of anarchy in Somalia, with it's horrible starting conditions, what could one expect if it were implemented somewhere with a more mature set of starting conditions, such as the US?

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Somalia is truly heaven on Earth. Speaking of that, what the hell are you doing here in the statist USA, pvn? When are you packing up, leaving the hellish oppression you've been subjected to here in the US, and moving there?

Articles like this really make me want to join you.

Some highlights:

<font color="blue">"Although I have never covered Somalia, I had heard enough stories from colleagues about it. It's a place where human life has little meaning, where feuding clan militias, juiced up on khat (a chewable stimulant herb), roar down dusty backstreets in "technicals" (pickup trucks modified with anti-aircraft or machine guns mounted on the bed)." </font>

Wow, sounds truly wonderful. I wonder why families even bother with DisneyWorld for their vacations anymore, now that Somalia has become a light to the troubled world encumbered by oppressive governments.

<font color="blue">"We leave the airstrip and stop near a shack on the roadside where eight heavily armed men hop in the back of Duguf's pickup truck.

Two of them have Russian-made RPK machine guns and bullet rounds worn bandolier-style around their bodies. The others are armed with the most popular assault rifle in the world, the AK-47, and are chock-a-block with extra magazines of ammo. They are dressed in a mix of
Gulf War-era U.S. Army "chocolate chip" desert fatigues, T-shirts and counterfeit adidas tracksuits made in China."</font>

Ooo goody. I feel tingly already. Anarcho-capitalism sounds just peachy.

<font color="blue">"This is my security team, essential for any outsider doing any kind of business in Somalia. Duguf put together a squad from different clans. That way, regardless of who they pass on the streets, they might be able to talk instead of shoot. Duguf pays his men with money, but some warlords pay their men in khat." </font>

I thought that warlord problem evaporated once the UN jumped ship? Maybe they're still around? I mean, you did say that the 'warlord problem only existed when the UN peacekeepers were there'.

Perhaps this journalist who visited there knows better? Have you been there, pvn? If not...why not, I wonder? Things are just so damn oppressive here...if I were you, I'd be on the first plane there.

<font color="blue"> "In Somalia a show of force is the only way to get from one block to another without getting shaken down for cash by other heavily armed gunmen at ad hoc roadblocks." </font>

Wow, give me a torch - I'm heading to Washington to burn it down! I want anarcho-capitalism, ASAP.

<font color="blue">"One warlord, Duguf tells me, bragged that he was making the equivalent of $40,000 a day in Somalia by operating dozens of roadblocks throughout the area. Even empty passenger buses must pay between $4 and $6 at each blockade, a fortune in a country where the average annual income is only $600 (according to 2004
CIA estimates)." </font>

Awesome.

<font color="blue">"When we arrive in the capital of Mogadishu I feel a twinge of deja vu. The city has the familiar patina of Third World poverty: dirt streets covered in garbage with corrugated metal shacks on each side where vendors sell anything they can get their hands on, from meat to brightly colored pillows." </font>

Wonderful. What amazing results.

<font color="blue">"A family of squatters now occupies the building. A man is cutting his hair in the front yard while children play in the ruins.

He tells me, "We live here because we don't have the money for anything else."</font>

Things sure are going well.

<font color="blue">"Eldon was a promising 22-year-old Reuters photographer who had spent much of his life in Africa. He also was a talented artist who made elaborate collages of his photographs and whatever scraps, wrapper, matchbooks or other images he could gather up. After Dan's death his mother turned them into a book, "The Journey is the Destination."

Eldon was clubbed and stabbed to death by Somalis enraged at the bloody carnage inside the destroyed house. Journalists Hos Maina, Hansi Kraus and Anthony Macharia also were killed.

Ironically, one who survived, but just barely, was the journalist who got to the site first, my friend and colleague Scott Peterson.

Duguf had been working for Scott as a driver at the time, and when Scott arrived on the scene after witnessing the attack from the roof of a local hotel, the crowd immediately surrounded him and began beating him.

He emptied his camera bag to the outstretched hands, trying to buy time, but then someone in the crowd struck him on the head with a machete.

According to Scott's account in his book "Me Against My Brother," Duguf shot the man with the machete with his 9-millimeter Beretta, then bundled Scott into the car and took him back to the hotel. Scott lived, but the attack reflected the anger and brutality of the crowd."</font>

All's fair in anarchy, I guess. Private security forces sounds like the way to go, IMO.


In all seriousness, care to rethink placing Somalia on a pedestal? I'm sure I could find more articles very similar to this by people who have actual experience living there. I'm certainly not convinced that anarcho-capitalism (at least in Somalia) is anything to aspire to. Perhaps anarcho-capitalism would work elsewhere - but lauding Somalia is strange to me, given the conditions there.

[Darryl_P]

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Well if government = evil, then the equation is simple. Everyone would benefit!


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That simple equation works in the aggregate, ie. that the population gets a net benefit overall, but that wasn't my question. Surely you can appreciate that it's possible for total EV to go up even if it goes down for 99% of the people, can you not?

Or maybe I should be addressing this to pvn since I think you meant it tongue-in-cheek.

[Cyrus]

Please tell me that you were joking. You can't be seriously offering up the example of ...Somalia as some kind of social prototype. It can't be!

There are other things besides mo-ney at work in a society, sir. Even if Somalia is a successful experiment in "anarcho-capitalism" (a hightly misleading term, by the way), the Somali society is way behind western democracies i terms of civilisation. Your capital might thrive there but you wouldn't.

[newfant]

I believe in a previous post, pvn said it would be better to fight and die like an animal than be governed. So it doesn't surprise me that he chose Somalia as his ideal utopian society.

Of course, fighting and dying like an animal is all well and good in theory until you actually have to do it. I suspect that's why pvn likes to post about anarcho-capitalism from the comfort of his EZ-chair in his climate-controlled home as opposed to actually living in a society where anarcho-capitalism is practiced.

[DVaut1]

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I believe in a previous post, pvn said it would be better to fight and die like an animal than be governed. So it doesn't surprise me that he chose Somalia as his ideal utopian society.

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Given that he willingly chooses to be governed (by what he calls an oppressive government) rather than fight and die like an animal, I think it's probably just empty rhetoric, as clearly, he CHOOSES to be governed than fight and die like an animal.

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Of course, fighting and dying like an animal is all well and good in theory until you actually have to do it. I suspect that's why pvn likes to post about anarcho-capitalism from the comfort of his EZ-chair in his climate-controlled home as opposed to actually living in a society where anarcho-capitalism is practiced.

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Yeah. Sounds about right to me.

[sam h]

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Given the success of anarchy in Somalia, with it's horrible starting conditions, what could one expect if it were implemented somewhere with a more mature set of starting conditions, such as the US?

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Very bad things obviously since running a mature market economy takes a huge amount of government intervention. Your anarcho-capitalism has only come close to existing once in a leading market economy - 19th century Britain. It took such a toll on society that it provoked a major backlash, as people sought protection from the state. Read Karl Polanyi's The Great Transformation for more details.

[SheetWise]

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I suspect that's why pvn likes to post about anarcho-capitalism from the comfort of his EZ-chair in his climate-controlled home as opposed to actually living in a society where anarcho-capitalism is practiced.

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What makes you think anarcho-capitalism is not being practiced in this country?

It may put you at odds with the law on occasion -- but everyone is not playing by the same rule book.