QQ - the right amount of aggression?

bozlax · #1 10-07-2005, 04:08 PM

Only a couple of orbits with Villan, and I haven't seen him do much. Did I not press enough, just right, or too much?

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 4 folds, MP3 raises, 2 folds, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, UTG calls, MP3 caps, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (13 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls, MP3 raises, Hero 3-bets, UTG folds, MP3 calls.

Turn: (10 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP3 calls.

River: (12 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP3 calls.

Final Pot: 14 BB

aK13 · #2 10-07-2005, 04:11 PM

Check/raise the flop.

If you get 3bet, you've got 2 outs + some sketchy backdoor spades.

tiltaholic · #3 10-07-2005, 04:13 PM

i think i'd checkraise the flop here.

lautzutao · #4 10-07-2005, 04:15 PM

I like it. We got him beat here, unless he's playing a chicken!@#$ KK. NH.

AK13: The checkraise doesn't seem as good because we have UTG wedged inbetween feeding us money. Why not make him pay to come along for the ride instead of blasting him out of the water?

tiltaholic · #5 10-07-2005, 04:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I like it. We got him beat here, unless he's playing a chicken!@#$ KK. NH.

AK13: The checkraise doesn't seem as good because we have UTG wedged inbetween feeding us money. Why not make him pay to come along for the ride instead of blasting him out of the water?

[/ QUOTE ]

my problem with that is this:

with what hands does the typical unknown player cap preflop?

lautzutao · #6 10-07-2005, 04:19 PM

why isn't villian capping this flop then? It doesn't make much sense to me if he's got KK. And I don't think he's gonna slow down with AA.

*EDIT I know what you're saying here Tilt. But how else do we play this? I don't see how C/R and calling a 3-bet is going to put us in any better position here to put villian on KK or AA. Are we supposed to fold?

bozlax · #7 10-07-2005, 04:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
why isn't villian capping this flop then? It doesn't make much sense to me if he's got KK. And I don't think he's gonna slow down with AA.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm unknown to Villan as well. This was my problem with this hand...neither of us knows squadoosh about the other, he capped preflop, and then slowed down to a bet/3-bet on the flop. Doesn't this look like WA/WB with KK?

lautzutao · #8 10-07-2005, 04:26 PM

haha, my 2nd orbit at a table and I'm dealt KK. I'm capping the flop and raising the turn if I'm bet into. I'll slow down to the 3-bet

*EDIT- Maybe this is Egoistic Fallacy, but with zilch known about the villian...this is how normal KK would be played here yes?

#9 10-07-2005, 04:17 PM

I think you have to fold to a raise on the turn or river since this imo means JJ QQ KK or AA. And QQ are very unlikely since you have 2 of them. I think you got beat by KK. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Shillx · #10 10-07-2005, 04:43 PM

Well you can't press any harder then you did as you bet/raised every chance you had.

This is a bad flop for you, and I would just be inclined to check and call the whole way. I know it sounds silly, but if we get aggressive in this hand we pretty much have to dump it if the villian fights back. The problem is that the villian can't like his hand too much if he has KK (our play looks a lot like aces). Obviously we call a flop cap if it comes and then fold the turn UI, but if he just calls the 3-bet with kings we are stuck since we are OOP. If we check to him, he will bet them and then we are forced to pay off to stop a bluff with AK. If we bet he will just call, so either way we put in two more BB with the worst hand.

This hand is a bitch. I hate all of our options on the river. I don't like check/folding against an unknown, I hate check/calling and betting doesn't seem to have much value since our only real hope here is that he has the other QQ or a very curious AK. I don't know what to tell you dude, but it seems like the villian outplayed you here since he had position. It also goes to show that being aggressive isn't always the answer in this game. If he throws in another raise, we just toss the hand in. By playing passive (with KK or AA) he collects another couple bets from us.

Brad