Checking in the dark

TakeMeToTheRiver · #1 03-10-2005, 09:41 AM

So you are in the SB at a 1/2 NL table with a trash or marginal hand. There are several limpers and you know the BB is passive and is unlikely to raise without a real monster. So you throw in another $1 and -- after BB checks -- you pat the table and say "check in the dark."

I do this on occassion. Being in the worst position, I figure I am only going to stay in this hand if the flop hits me very hard. If I check in the dark, there is no way to get a read on me -- indeed, I can avoid looking at the flop and watch my opponents when the flop comes. I have won some significant pots with this move when I flop top two pair on a ragged board or a straight with my offsuit two-gapper.

What is the downside of checking in the dark? Am I missing something? When do you check in the dark?

xxxxx · #2 03-10-2005, 09:46 AM

Of course they got a read on you. They now know you have trash or a marginal hand. They don't know if you hit or not.

otnemem · #3 03-10-2005, 09:47 AM

The downside is that if you hit a marginal but vulnerable flop, you haven't tested the waters at all. Say there are four people to the flop, including you and the BB. You hold 7-9 off. The board comes up 3-4-7. You have a very vulnerable hand, but you might be ahead. If you don't lead out and bet the top pair, you're giving everyone else a (potentially) free look at the turn. Instead, if you throw out a half-pot bet or similar, you can try to gauge where the rest of the table is at rather than being completely in the dark because LP makes a position bet after everyone folds. Top pair weak kicker on a low board right there is not exactly a good hand to be check-raising with. I'd rather throw out a bet and get a feel for where my opponents are at...

Ghazban · #4 03-10-2005, 10:11 AM

Another downside is you look like a tool who watched David Williams' 55 hand at the WSOP main event final table too many times.

I sometimes do it and then say "I saw that on TV!" if I want to project the image of a clueless fool. The dealers who have seen me at the casino many times always give me a little smile when I do that as they know I'm just screwing around but all the WPT wannabes think they just marked me as a donator.

otnemem · #5 03-10-2005, 10:24 AM

Actually, when I play a limit ring game, I'll sometimes check dark if I called a raise from the SB with a mediocre holding (maybe small PP or small suited connectors). This is only because if I bet out, it's not likely to get much respect anyway if a few people called two before the flop... So if I hit my trips, or a monster draw, then I can check-raise safely...

TakeMeToTheRiver · #6 03-10-2005, 05:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The downside is that if you hit a marginal but vulnerable flop, you haven't tested the waters at all. Say there are four people to the flop, including you and the BB. You hold 7-9 off. The board comes up 3-4-7. You have a very vulnerable hand, but you might be ahead. If you don't lead out and bet the top pair, you're giving everyone else a (potentially) free look at the turn. Instead, if you throw out a half-pot bet or similar, you can try to gauge where the rest of the table is at rather than being completely in the dark because LP makes a position bet after everyone folds. Top pair weak kicker on a low board right there is not exactly a good hand to be check-raising with. I'd rather throw out a bet and get a feel for where my opponents are at...

[/ QUOTE ]

I would not bet out in your example. From SB, I would not even try and protect top pair/small kicker with four or five callers. I either hope for the free card to make my miracle trips or two pairs or I fold -- maybe I call a very small bet with big implied odds -- probably not.

TakeMeToTheRiver · #7 03-10-2005, 05:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Another downside is you look like a tool who watched David Williams' 55 hand at the WSOP main event final table too many times.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not a downside. If they think that I am a tool and that wins me money, I can live with that.

DeuceKicker · #8 03-10-2005, 09:08 PM

Their read on your abilities and your 'tool factor' are not mutually exclusive. Most decent players will have probably made up their minds about your play before this. Throwing this into your "bag 'o tricks" will only cause them to add "tool" to "probably a decent player", not replace it.

TakeMeToTheRiver · #9 03-10-2005, 11:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Their read on your abilities and your 'tool factor' are not mutually exclusive. Most decent players will have probably made up their minds about your play before this. Throwing this into your "bag 'o tricks" will only cause them to add "tool" to "probably a decent player", not replace it.

[/ QUOTE ]

The only reason to think a player is a tool for checking in the dark is because he has made the game more difficult for you. Checking in the dark was done well before Williams ever did it. I can't say I did it before that but I also didn't start doing it because of him -- at least not directly.

If I do it one out of ten hands when I am first to act, that is a lot. However, if I know for sure that I am not going to bet my hand because it will either be a check-raise or check-fold situation, no reason to show more than I have to.

Call me a tool -- maybe its the tools who can't deal with something a little different.

perfectm · #10 03-10-2005, 11:22 PM

Needless to say this happens a lot more since Williams busted Arieh. I do it from time to time with small pairs like Williams did in that hand, but rarely with a marginal/trashy hand. I'd say per 10 hours of a session I will probably dark check from the SB once.