Two personal beliefs and their consequences

This is exactly the conclusion I have reached. In fact, your post is basically my exact thought process. This makes it at least a little more likely we have hit upon something here. I'm not happy about that : (

Unsatisfactory how? Why not just do what you consider to have value? Go for "+EV" in your life. If raping/killing/stealing will have good consequences for you, go for it.

Keep in mind that emotional consequences are very real, too. Even if doing "bad things" would result in some nominal gain, the feelings of guilt or shame may not be worth it. Reputation and risk of getting caught are also worth considering. But I don't think many "immoral" acts are wise or rational in the first place.

Another thing to consider are your standards of value and success. What are your goals? Objectively being happy is no better than being miserable, but I assume you have an ingrained preference for being happy. You may also have an ingrained preference for helping others to be happy rather than causing them to suffer. You may have a natural or conditioned desire to see yourself as a "good person." There are many reasons to act ethically that have nothing to do with a higher power or with notions of "free will."

Your choices may be predetermined, but that doesn't make them insignificant. The choices you make determine the entire course of your life. In a world with free will, you might be able to "change your ways" at some later date and recover, but in a causal universe there is no escaping the effects of what you do. So the idea of determinism hardly diminishes the significance of your immediate actions.

Because I'm not actually making choices. Because I can't NOT do what I'm doing. Because I must do exactly what I'm doing.

That's depressing; however I am unwilling to simply change my viewpoint because I don't want to believe it.

You are making choices. The fact that will isn't "free" doesn't mean that will doesn't exist. I think you're overusing reductionism here. You are making choices, you are just making them according to logical processes.

When you make a choice, that whole process may exist as a series of predetermined chemical mechanics in your brain. But you still control the choice you make.

When you say that you can't not do what you are doing, you assume that you yourself are separate from your choice. But you aren't. You are a result of causal mechanics as much as anything else. To say you "can't choose not to choose what you choose" is like asking whether God can create something so heavy even he can't lift it. There is no "you" to not do what you're doing. You are part of your choices, your choices reflect you and you reflect them.

The assumption of some outside "agent" who is limited by determinism isn't consistent with the idea of determinism.

To put it another way, you don't have the ability to float into the air. Does that mean your body limits you? In a certain sense I suppose it does - but there would be no "you" to float into the air without your body. Regardless, being depressed because you can't magically "go against" gravity seems silly to me. I believe determinism and a desire to "go against" determinism are similar.

What is it in particular that makes you feel depressed?

Can I not make this post?

I'm not really depressed. I'm actually quite a happy person. It's just the idea of not being able to do something else than what I do that get's me down.

But you can do whatever you choose to do. The only things you can't do are the things you don't choose to do.

Why not choose to do something enjoyable? That might cheer you up and help you get your mind off it.

[Lestat]

Just how literally are you taking this belief?

If someone is 500 lbs. because (among other reasons), they eat a gallon of ice cream per day, are you implying that they CAN'T stop eating ice cream?

If someone doesn't have enough money because they are (among other things), a lazy procrastinator, are you implying they can't change?

Are these people completely disempowered to change their way of thinking? Their views on life, etc? I'm sure I'm missing your point. Otherwise, you're exactly right. What a depressing way to go through life thinking you do not conrol your destiny.

100% literally. Yes, they cannot stop eating ice cream.

There is no logical way to defeat this argument (that I have seen). I will not accept illogical arguments against it.

You see my problem! (I feel guilty telling people about this and I would much rather never have thought of it).

[chezlaw]

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100% literally. Yes, they cannot stop eating ice cream.

There is no logical way to defeat this argument (that I have seen). I will not accept illogical arguments against it.

You see my problem! (I feel guilty telling people about this and I would much rather never have thought of it).

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I still don't understand you point. If they have no free will they may or may not stop eating ice cream in the future. If they have free will then they may or may not stop eating ice-cream in the future.

In all cases it seems like their choice but may not be. How can you tell the difference?

chez

Maybe you won't accept illogical arguments, but would you accept experiential arguments? Just look around you, there's plenty of reason to think we are not completely determined.