How do you avoid not losing a lot of money on this hand?

#1 09-03-2005, 05:07 PM

Villain is MP2 and is a gambler.
SB is a TAG.
UTG+1 is unknown.

$2/$4 Limit (10 handed)

Starting Stacks
Seat 1: CO ($97)
Seat 2: Button ($135.25)
Seat 3: SB ($109)
Seat 4: BB ($83)
Seat 5: UTG ($76.50)
Seat 6: UTG+1 ($84)
Seat 7: EP ($116.50)
Seat 8: MP1 ($116.38)
Seat 9: MP2 ($96.20)
Seat 10: LP (Hero) ($47)

Preflop: Hero is LP with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 raises, 2 folds, MP2 calls, Hero calls, 2 folds, SB calls, BB folds

Flop: (1.5 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB bets, 1 fold, MP2 calls, Hero calls

Turn: (0.75 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB bets, MP2 raises, Hero raises, SB calls, MP2 raises, Hero calls, SB calls

River: (0.75 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, MP2 bets, Hero calls, SB calls

Final Pot: $81

(winner) MP2 shows J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 
SB shows 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 

This hand was costly, and I'm wondering if/how to have avoided the carnage. I guess I could have put someone on JT, but otherwise, I don't know that I played it incorrectly after the flop. I'm not sure if my passivity saved me money or might have tipped me off to someone hitting the boat if they reraised (I obviously thought I was way ahead at this point and was slow playing especially with a backdoor flush draw).

I would appreciate the peanut gallery's opinions on if how to play differently....

droolie · #2 09-03-2005, 05:19 PM

I think you played it fine and many players here would have lost more than you did. Sometimes you just have to pay the piper. Folding to the cap on the turn would be a mistake as you have the best hand quite a bit here. Just be happy SB realized he was in trouble or else showing this down might have cost you more.

It doesn't really apply here but I have a little rule of thumb that I use. It states that if someone goes icky palooky capping every street and JT makes the nuts, they usually have it... JT must be the most overplayed hand in HE. I rarely do anything with this rule as I still pay off like a slot machine on a cruiseship but it really is true.

JerseyTom · #3 09-03-2005, 05:24 PM

Actually, I think you should have lost a lot more than you did. I would have 3-bet preflop, raised the flop and 3-bet the turn and only slowed down on the river.

The simple answer is that you don't avoid losing a lot of money on this hand as long as you continue to play good agressive poker. Obviously, if you stop playing altogether, these types of losses vanish.

Seriously, though, you will win on this board an overwhelming majority of the time, since your oppenents typically won't be holding the 1 or 2 hands that beat you. You can't play not to lose when you have a really strong hand...

And next time, be sure to spike an A on the river, OK? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Tom

setzf · #4 09-03-2005, 05:40 PM

I think raising the flop is better. Slowplaying in this case is not good in my opinion for a few reasons. first off the pots already 10sb when it gets to you (not big but not small either). the tags bet is usually a J or a desperation bet with something like 88. if its a desperation bet you wont get any more money from him, if he has a J you'll get a lot of bets out of him which will usually be good since you have the top kicker. also the gambler will probably give you lots of action no matter what. Also there is almost no card that will give someone an expensive second best hand except maybe an A in case someone has AK, or AQ, but there are several miracle cards that will overtake you like if the tag turns his set or the gambler turns his kicker. Think of it this way more often than not your opponents already have very expensive second best hands so you should get there money while you still can.
In short I think you SHOULD lose a good amount of money on this hand because if you don't then the times you have the best hand (the vast majority of the time) you won't be making enough money.
my 2 cents

istewart · #5 09-03-2005, 05:45 PM

I would have folded preflop.

sy_or_bust · #6 09-03-2005, 05:47 PM

Surely the answer is fold preflop, but I think that is bad advice. I might 3-bet some TAGs, and call others - sometimes you are dominated, sure, but MP2 makes this a sweet deal. Postflop you played fine. Getting really aggro against predictable LAP players isn't very good.

Reprocess · #7 09-04-2005, 06:58 AM

I think calling preflop is a pretty big mistake(table dependent of course). Cold Calling simply sucks with most hands.

That being said, I think it was played fine post flop, and ya, you were lucky that the guy with the set slowed down.

Redd · #8 09-04-2005, 10:38 AM

Why has JerseyTom been the only person to suggest raising the flop? We're unsure if this guy will bet UI overs on the turn again, so this seems like a straightforward value-raise to me..

shant · #9 09-04-2005, 01:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I would have folded preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

#10 09-04-2005, 02:19 PM

Could those of you saying fold preflop explain why. I'd call/3-bet all day with this hand at a loose table.