VPIP 30/20 today, 20/15 yesterday.... and tomorrow?

[kiddo]

I think there are a bit to many posters at this forum that really thinks that changing your VPIP from whatever to 30/20 will do wonders for your winrate. New posters should be aware that not many months ago this fourm was pretty sure that VPIP 20-25% was the only way to go.

Also I think there is a little to much talk about "superior postflop skill" as the magic reason to why we can play more hands. Its not like u yesterday didnt know how to play postflop and therefore lost with QTo, K9s and A8o UTG but today know all about postflop and can make these hands win from UTG. Postflop skill takes years to learn, not months, weeks or days.

Of course there are some really bad guys (Im now talking about 10/20) that u can win a lot from postflop, but normally most players do their big misstakes preflop, thats where they get stuck with a dominated hand they cant fold because they get a piece of the flop.

Dont be to sure this forum will love VPIP 30/20 in another few months. Then a lot of players will have done 100K with their VPIP 30/20 and superior postflopskills and suddenly find that it wasnt a magic formula.

[NLSoldier]

...and tommorow 50/40.

Just ask excel [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[helpmeout]

I'm sure there are a lot of weak players who are running hot with 30/20 type stats.

People dont realise that the successful 30/20 type players like schneids and nikla have been around a long time.

[Silverback]

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People dont realise that the successful 30/20 type players like schneids and nikla have been around a long time.

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These 2 players dont currently play 30/20........... do they????????

[Nikla]

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but normally most players do their big misstakes preflop, thats where they get stuck with a dominated hand they cant fold because they get a piece of the flop.


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If they can't find a fold just because they got a piece of the flop, it's their postflop play that is costing them the most money.

[kiddo]

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If they can't find a fold just because they got a piece of the flop, it's their postflop play that is costing them the most money.

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A player coldcalling on button with pretty weak hands will not lose 1BB/hand doing this.

[MAxx]

can you expand?, i do not fully understand your point.

edit: w/ reguards to the coldcalling response to Nikla's piece of the flop response

[kiddo]

If a VPIP 25 plays 100 hands he has seen 30 pots (big blind for free) and paid, lets say, 25BB.

If a VPIP 60 plays 100 hands he has seen 65 pots and paid, lets say, 50BB.

The difference in winrate between VPIP 25 and VPIP 60 is not 25BB/hour. The loose player wins back most of the money he spends preflop (even with trashands as 96s).

Of course there will be some extremly bad players that actually lose more postflop then they spend preflop. But they will not play the game for many hours unless they are extremly rich.

[Nikla]

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A player coldcalling on button with pretty weak hands will not lose 1BB/hand doing this.


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A good 30/20 player won't do much coldcalling. He will raise a wide variety of holdings, but he wont coldcall weak hands.
Seems to me like you're mixing up your cards here. I get the point you're trying to make, but you're just wrong when you say that preflop is where the biggest mistakes are made.

[kiddo]

Ah, in my first post I was talking about why the (bad) players we win from lose money, and I think it got more to do with bad preflop play then bad postflop play. Or at least I think there has been a little to much talk about bad/superiour postflop play lately at this forum.

In Harringtons book on nolimt tournaments he says that position is so important that a mediocre player would beat a worldclass player if he only had position every hand. I think the same goes for preflopplay. A bad player would beat a good if he only always came in with better hands. In this sense I think misstakes preflop are more expensive then postflop.

I was not talking about the difference between 20/15 and 30/20. Im a 25/17 myself so Im in between.