Big draw facing raise and reraise on flop: insta call or not?

[BigBiceps]

I would fold this. I can find better spots to pick off overbettors.

Axd or KQd are hands that have you in very bad shape.

[nietzreznor]

I would fold. I don't think its good to make a habit out of calling all-ins like this with nothing but a non-nut draw. You'd hate to see a set here, and you'd hate even more to see the NFD (which is highly probable), just fold.

[Bukem_]

[ QUOTE ]


Flop: ($20) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets $5</font>
<font color="#666666"> BB folds</font>
UTG calls $5.
<font color="#CC3333">MP raises to $15</font>

Hero calls 15. Yuck.


[/ QUOTE ]

Say F*ck it and chuck it

Summary of opinions:
nietzrenor FOLD
BigBiceps FOLD
Scorch FOLD
ajmargarine FOLD
GGrey FOLD
elus2 CALL ALL IN
machinehead CALL ALL IN
beavens CALL ALL IN
z-plasty CALL ALL IN
5 fold-4 call
Shows how complex is the situation

I called. It was a difficult call, one of those situations i don't like to face.

On one hand, it looks like i have 12 outs and if i put UTG on a set, it's a mandatory call.
I thought UTG had a set which he would have played oddly and SB (preflop raiser) could have had something like AK (dead money) or AAA slowplayed as hell (UTG dead money then). In both case, one of them have almost no outs. In the set vs set case, SB will call, making my odds really good. If SB has AK, then he's unlikely to call but if he does (he's not a very good player), same thing, excellent odds for me.

But the ace let the possibility for someone to have a combo like top pair + flush draw or belly buster + flush draw, which had me extremely worried.

If someone had a higher flush draw (Ad8d and KdQd being highly possible) then it would be a mandatory laydown. The way i played my hand (quite passively), i did nothing to make a higher flush draw fold.

So if someone has a higher flush draw, it's a very bad call. If i'm against two sets, it's a very good call. It there's one set and SB folds, it's slightly +EV call.

All in all, i almost laid it down but, stats of oppoentns being:
SB (preflop raiser) 45/20/3.5
UTG (all in on flop) 55/10/1 (quite passive, have to have something to go all in)
i thought there was an extra chance one of them was doing something stupid and i didn't wanted to fold my big draw to finally see a donk show a semi trash hand.

SB had a set of sevens (now you see why i could't eliminate UTG having a very oddly played set)
UTG had KdQd
UTG hits flush and takes down a hefty pot

now; should i have played it differently before UTG shoves? First time it comes to me, what sould i have done? Raise or fold?
If i re-raise, i'm not going to make other flush draws fold (Ad8d and KdQd will stay) BUT i'll make sure that no hands that i beat will call, which is not something i'm seeking. After the hand, i thought that just calling could have let a lesser hand add money to the pot with almost no chance to win (if SB has AK, the the third time it comes to him the pot is really big and that can make him call, more than if i shove directly). If there was a hand that would have me crushed, calling/raising makes almost no difference, SB would have folded weak hands, making the pots smaller for the few times i woulshave won with my belly buster.

you fold the first time it comes to you then?

[ajmargarine]

[ QUOTE ]
I think it came back around to him and he says 'Heck, I got a great draw, let's push it.' Ad8d or KdQd.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
UTG had KdQd. UTG hits flush and takes down a hefty pot

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Now why did I spend all last week not doing that at the tables. [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

[scrapperdog]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with this. It is one thing to move in yourself and get some fold equity but it is another to call all-in bets. Villian probably has more than top pair here. If villian has a set he has about the same chance of filling up as you do of making the flush. I dont see how people think this is a good call. Might be a good bet though. I constantly see people encouraging other people on this forum to call all in bets with a non-nut draw and minimal money invested in pot... this makes no sense to me. If you are gonna do something like this at least be sure your flush is gonna be good if you do hit it (not jack high).

Edit I just read the results and was wrong that the villian had more than top pair ... but he did have a better draw. You have to think he has one or the other in order to do this. If you pushed it in yourself I doubt this guy would have folded but there are players out there that fold non-nut flush draws with a gutshot to an all-in. But calling just seems like a bad move all the way around.

[scrapperdog]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold. UTG's drawing to a bigger flush Ad8d and you are crushed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice read here you deserve some props.

[ericlambi]

Barf. I think you are drawing to a non-diamond 8 a bunch of the time as the possibility of a higher flush draw is relatively large. Fold.