$15+1 turbo - AKo vs raise and call - Page 2

splashpot · #11 10-14-2005, 01:28 PM

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I should clarify, AK is good for its str8 and flush potential, not tptk...

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AK has terrible straight potential. It can only make one straight. And this post is about AKo so it has terrible flush potential too.

pooh74 · #12 10-14-2005, 01:58 PM

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I should clarify, AK is good for its str8 and flush potential, not tptk...

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Thats REALLY bad thinking DJ. If you want to play a hand purely for its "implied odds" here, then AKo is one of the last you choose. Think about why, besides the obvious.

54s, 44 etc...these you might call after two raises (not recomended, but this is what you mean)

housenuts · #13 10-14-2005, 02:00 PM

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AK is my nemesis. The times I push and lose have to be equal to the times I call and miss flop. When I miss flop I am still alive to keep playing. AK is worse than 22, yet treated like AA-QQ... I don't know... can't figure out how to play AK early at early levels... I had a recent stretch were 10 out of 20 games were lost w/ AK

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i disagree. AK is not worse than 22. heads up, the two hands vs. each other, sure 22 is the favourite but i'd still rather have AK. If you push with AK and get called there's only 2 hands you don't want to see (AA and KK) and you're not even in horrible shape against KK. other hands that call are either a flip, or you have dominated.

on the other hand, if you push with 22 and get called you are a coinflip at best unless some donk calls you with exactly A2.

you can't really call with 22 either because you know you're either in serious trouble or a flip. with AK you can decide if you feel like gambling

pooh74 · #14 10-14-2005, 02:05 PM

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Errmm...just push here, there is t375 (more than 1/3 of your stack) in the middle, you have tons of FE and even when called you fare well vs. your opponents' calling range.

Calling and then folding 2/3 of the flops is a big mistake...especially since you won't necessarily get paid off when you do hit.

In a smaller pot I like calling.

Yugoslav

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AK is my nemesis. The times I push and lose have to be equal to the times I call and miss flop. When I miss flop I am still alive to keep playing. AK is worse than 22, yet treated like AA-QQ... I don't know... can't figure out how to play AK early at early levels... I had a recent stretch were 10 out of 20 games were lost w/ AK

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Thats why this hand should be a push. I would push here. No calling and messing around with cBets in a 3way hand. BTW, on a seperate note, I dont like cBetting a PF raiser if its checked to me on flop with someone else in the hand as well...Ill almost always take the free card (unless I am shortstacked and the pot is juicy).

p

#15 10-14-2005, 02:06 PM

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I should clarify, AK is good for its str8 and flush potential, not tptk...

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Yah, it's one straight is way better than all those TPTKs it makes. ESPECIALLY considering SnGs are usually played as short stack poker.

Sykes · #16 10-14-2005, 02:14 PM

DJ, the reason that AK is regarded as highly as AA-QQ here is because if you push here with 22 and you get called by JJ you're a 4 to 1 dog. If you get called when holding AK against JJ you're a small dog and the extra money in the pot makes up for that small underdog that you are.

Paragon · #17 10-14-2005, 02:16 PM

AK is the workhorse of tourneys because of the power of fold equity pre flop in situations like these (and because you are dealt AK more than twice as often as a specific pair).

If you use PokerTracker, AK/AKs combined better be in the top 5 for net profit in tourney chips. By comparison, 22 will be much lower on the list.

Gomez22 · #18 10-14-2005, 02:19 PM

Reading this caused me to think about how I play AKo in similar situations and my line/plan of attack for cases like this.

For me, personally, AKo is merely a drawing hand that has no real value in a situation like this. When I have position on a PF raiser, I like to just call with AK, see a flop, and play the hand as accordingly as I see fit. The difference here is that damn CO that called in between you and the PF raiser.

If you call, you're giving BB 5.25-1 odds to call, and the SB 4.2-1 to call; not good, but no one ever said that the blinds are thinking players who realize what pot odds are. Also, you have given no information about the players already in the pot in front of you. Are they weak? tight? LAGgish? Without any of that info, it's hard to make an educated guess as to how to play the hand.

From your post, I think it's close between folding and pushing (personally, I would fold here. You have plenty of chips for a few more orbits, you have no idea what the blinds are going to do, and a push negates your positional advantage), with calling being the worst of the 3 options. AKo is a hand similar to mid-pairs...... if you're going to play it, you don't want to play it against more than 1 (maybe 2) opponents. You DO have some FE, but I don't like getting involved in a raise/call situation in front of me without a very good hand.

pooh74 · #19 10-14-2005, 02:35 PM

(personally, I would fold here. You have plenty of chips for a few more orbits, you have no idea what the blinds are going to do, and a push negates your positional advantage)

This is flawed logic. Thats like buying a lottery ticket, winning, and then not redeeming it because it negates the value of the paper it was printed on.

An exagerated analogy? yes, but you get the point. The value of the hand coupled with the FE and sandwiching effect of the push MORE than make up for the giving up of a "positional advantage". Folding here is horrible...calling is bad too.

Cmon guys, this is where SNGs are won! If you had a gun to your head on winning this one SNG, then maybe I would think about this...but over a large sample, a push here is the optimal play.

Dr_Jeckyl_00 · #20 10-14-2005, 03:30 PM

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DJ, the reason that AK is regarded as highly as AA-QQ here is because if you push here with 22 and you get called by JJ you're a 4 to 1 dog. If you get called when holding AK against JJ you're a small dog and the extra money in the pot makes up for that small underdog that you are.

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You bring up a very good point and I understand and agree that AK has the potential to become a great hand, but... your still a dog. Don't mistake me here I am not saying I will push 22 here... In fact the only hands I would push in this specific example are AA-QQ. JJ or less I am folding. I just hate pushing AK and risking my tourney life a draw... I know it will hit sometimes, but I just hate losing with it... when I could have folded and still been in the game in good shape... FWIW, I have had some long losing streaks w/ AK...