Two river value bets?

[Ulysses]

New to the table. Don't know anything about these guys. Two questions.

1) Pre-flop?
2) River?

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: akshawnd is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG folds, MP raises, CO calls, akshawnd calls, SB folds, BB calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(4 players) </font>
BB checks, MP checks, CO checks, akshawnd bets, BB calls, MP calls, CO folds.

Turn: (5.75 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(3 players) </font>
BB checks, MP checks, akshawnd bets, BB folds, MP calls.

River: (7.75 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players) </font>
MP checks, akshawnd checks.

Final Pot: 7.75 BB

Results in white below: <font color="white">
MP shows Kd Js (one pair, kings).
akshawnd shows Qh Kh (one pair, kings).
Outcome: akshawnd wins 7.75 BB. </font>

Another new table, also no info on opponents.

Bet the river?

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Preflop: akshawnd is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. MP posts a blind of $10. UTG posts a blind of $10.
UTG (poster) checks, MP (poster) raises, akshawnd 3-bets, SB folds, BB folds, UTG folds, MP calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players) </font>
MP checks, akshawnd bets, MP calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players) </font>
MP checks, akshawnd bets, MP calls.

River: (7.25 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players) </font>
MP checks, akshawnd checks.

Final Pot: 7.25 BB

Results in white below: <font color="white">
MP shows 3h 3d (one pair, threes).
akshawnd shows Qh Qc (one pair, queens).
Outcome: akshawnd wins 7.25 BB. </font>

[NLSoldier]

Hand 1- PF i think this is worth a 3 bet. I cant criticize the river play too much because i find myself doing the same thing quite a bit. I think its very close.

Hand 2-Here i think checking is usually better because a worse hand will be just as scared of the ace as you are and probably fold, a king will still call, and an ace will likely check raise.

[Ulysses]

I edited and added a second hand while you were responding...

[NLSoldier]

I edited and added a reply to your 2nd hand while you were responding to my response [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[PuffsNutz]

Preflop, KQ and KQs is one of the few hands I prefer
to just cold-call a raise with.

River: Before I cheated and peaked I was thinking
that you Check-Check if BB had called, but I
would bet everytime if HU with preflop raiser.
Preflop raiser is clearly afraid of Ace if he
hasnt bet into or raised you yet..
But you will win this river bet more than your fair
share quite easily...Perhaps higher than 80% even
(sound high?)

Once in a while you run into the tricky-bad player
that waits till the river to checkraise.

[Diplomat]

First hand:

BET THE RIVER. No reason to believe he has an ace.

Second hand:

Looks pretty standard, except me thinks an utg post and mp post in a 6-max game is not a sign of solid poker players.

-Diplomat

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
River: Before I cheated and peaked I was thinking
that you Check-Check if BB had called, but I
would bet everytime if HU with preflop raiser.

[/ QUOTE ]

Boy, that is just so right. The fact that PFR is the one doing the check-calling is a critical point. He'll have a smaller pocket pair or worse King way more than enough of the time. I agree w/ you that it's very high and your 80% number might be close.

This is part of the problem w/ multi-tabling. Had I realized it was PFR still in the hand and thought this through, you're absolutely right - easy bet. But I wasn't actually sure who was still in there, so I thought they could be in there w/ Ace-rag - a hand PFR would almost always bet out with.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
BET THE RIVER. No reason to believe he has an ace.

[/ QUOTE ]

After reading your and PuffsNutz' responses, I'm kinda embarrassed about that hand.

[rtrombone]

Hand 1 is such an obvious value bet that I believe you when you say you were distracted by action on other tables. You will get called by worse kings, QQ, JJ, 88, etc. etc.

Hand 2 is closer, as if I were MP I could very easily have a king. My default (as MP) would've been to bet the river, unless I knew you were good enough to fold any hand I beat...

The more I play, though, the more I believe that bet-bots on the river get paid, plain and simple. If this guy's a standard fish he could easily have a nine, and just a nine. To think you could've maybe value-bet 55 here...damn.

[gonores]

I guess there is no need to pile on to the Hand 1 river play, but I wanted to chime in and say I three-bet this preflop most of the time.

I like Hand 2 lots.