Tricky BB Hand (or not?)

Playing in an annual $100 buyin tournament with friends. 11 players. All but me and Villain are inexperienced hold 'em players. We're on about the 15th hand and are playing at two tables until we get down to 8, when we'll switch to 1.

Villain and I have played thousands of hands together. He is solid and very aggressive. He perceives me as solid and more conservative than he is. Neither one of us is likely to put our tournament on the line this early against this field without a serious hand and we both know this.

Table is 5 handed, relevant stacks are:

Hero: T950
Villian: T870
Blinds are 10/20

Action is folded around to Villian in the SB, who raises to T50.

Hero is in the BB with 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. I've yet to get anything close to playable and have yet to play a hand. Villian is capable of raising me with any 2 cards in this situation so I make a loose/weak call to see if I can hit a good flop.

Flop comes: 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Pot is T100.

Villain bets T50. His range of hands is pretty wide here: overcards, pocket pair or some piece of the flop are all possibilities. Anything huge, like an overpair or set probably would have been checked to give me a chance to try to steal. I feel like I'm definitely way ahead and this point and decide to call and try to induce another stab at the pot on the turn.

Turn: (8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]) A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (Pot: T200)

Villain bets T150. This is a little larger than I would expect for another stab at the pot, since my call is likely to have made villian nervous if he had air. Still, I figure Ax is his most likely holding.

Hero Raises to T400.

Villain pushes.

Hero?

I'll post results later today.

[cleinen]

I think there is no way you can call the preflop bet. You can't get much worse than 82o

[Bigwig]

You played this hand poorly, IMO. What is the payout structure? If it's winner take all, you played it less poorly, but still bad.

First off, fold preflop. There's nothing wrong with calling a SB raise with any kind of playable hand in MTTs with position. But this really isn't a MTT, and chip accumulation, and long-term table image aren't as important. Especially since your opponent already knows how you play. And, you don't have a playable hand. You have ridiculous garbage.

Second, you should reraise on the flop. Top and bottom pair (8 high) really isn't that great. You're one card away from being desperately behind very often. It's simply too weak to slowplay. Trips, or top and bottom pair with an A would be a different story. Beyond that, it's too early to slowplay. Find out where you are now.

On the turn, after you raise to 400, I would call the all-in. But I would never have gotten there.

[Deuce2High]

Fold preflop...

But let me guess: Villian has A4.

FWIW I'd raise the flop as well.

The tourney is winner take all. Agree that the call preflop was way too loose. I was thinking I could outplay him after the flop if he missed and possibly discourage him from stealing my blinds all night (this was his second attempt in two opportunites), but especially given how things turn out, it was a terrible idea. This is not a play I often make.

I'm more interested in how I misplayed this post-flop. Thanks for the feedback so far.

[playtitleist]

[ QUOTE ]
I make a loose/weak call to see if I can hit a good flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
Every thing you wrote up to this point obligates you to fold this trash pre-flop.

[ QUOTE ]

Flop comes: 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Pot is T100.

Villain bets T50.

[/ QUOTE ]
Since you didn't fold pre-flop, you need to raise Villain. Here's why:
- calling shows you like your hand, so you won't get any more chips out of villain unless he hits a hand, which is not good for you.
- if he is as strong as you suggest, his weak bet here indicates a trap is on. <50% CB is not a normal CB. he's probably on an overpair, trips, or TPGK
- You need to define your hand.
- He knows you to be conservative

Put in a good size raise and see what he does. If he calls you, you are in some kind of trouble. If he re-raises you are in a lot of trouble..

You simply have to raise his flop bet...actually you simply have to fold to his pre-flop bet.

[Deuce2High]

You said that he plays tight and he likes to avoid getting involved with marginal hands with you this early in the tournament. I'd definatly raise him here, because he might have a marginal-strong holding that you are beating. Better start building a pot now.

I don't think it was misplayed that badly, however... besides the preflop call, of course.

When he bet on the flop, your decision to slowplay probably cost you this hand. Once you called on the flop, I would just call him down from there.

[ChrisW]

Rule: don't slowplay in deep-stacked poker.

There are exceptions, but until you are much more experienced, you are better off just blindly adhering to that rule. On this flop, there are three great reasons to raise:

1) It disguises your hand better! When you call on a virtually draw-free rag flop, it lets Villain know that you don't hold any interest in protecting your hand. So, you either have a small piece of the flop that you're planning to give up on the turn if you don't improve, or you have a very strong hand which may survive giving a free card. When you raise Villain on the turn, you reveal the latter type (or perhaps a turned two pair). So, you'll only get action when you don't want it.

By contrast, when you raise on this flop, you could have a piece of the flop, an overpair, two pair, a set, or a pure bluff because it looks like the flop missed Villain's big cards. So, Villain is much more likely to give you action with the worst hand.

2) If Villain does have an overpair, the t50 that he is paying to see the turn is basically a fair price. When he hits his set on the turn (4.5% of the time), he'll probably get your whole stack plus the pot, 920 additional chips. If the board pairs fours, he'll likely win a medium pot. Not bad for a t50 investment.

Two pair and top pair are probably the most misplayed hands in NLH. Your hand is only 75% against an overpair, so don't give Villain the odds to draw!

3) When you raise a flop with a marginal holding on some later hand, your opponent may recall that you don't slowplay with good hands. Therefore, he may fold the best hand because his fold is correct against your RANGE of hands.

I'd make it T150 on this flop.

Thanks for all the advice - I tend to agree. I've actually already put it into practice, raising with top and bottom pair after flopping it in the BB. My opponent called my flop raise and sucked out on me, but at least I made him pay for the privilege.

Results in white below:

<font color="white"> Hero calls. Villian turns over A 4 and I miss my four outs on the river to lose to a better 2 pair. </font>