KTs in a kill pot 5/10@FW

[heykev]

Joe U posted this for me, he failed to mention that i had a dead read on the table and had built my original buy in of $250 up to around $600. I understand I was getting close to true odds to call but I knew I was up against a set. In this weak game raising preflop or on the on the flop would not in my opinion have changed any of the action based on the play in the previous 4 hours I was there. If anything I should have folded this hand preflop. I was clearly the best player at the table and thought I would be better suited getting my money into another pot where I would be much more of a favorite. At best in this hand I felt I had 8 true outs. Thanx for all the responses.
Kevin

[Joe Tall]

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If anything I should have folded this hand preflop. I was clearly the best player at the table and thought I would be better suited getting my money into another pot where I would be much more of a favorite

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There must have been some really really bad players if you were going to fold this preflop. It's an absolute must raise w/the extra blind in this situation, a must.

Welcome to the forum,
Joe Tall

[mterry]

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I was clearly the best player at the table and thought I would be better suited getting my money into another pot where I would be much more of a favorite.

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Do other people avoid pushing situations with potentially small edges when they are a significantly better player than everyone at the table? Shouldn't that type of variance reduction be reserved for tournaments?

Mike

[elindauer]

i'd guess this type of play is due to the supersized nature of the bets making people a little gunshy to push their edges, especially for players that like the confidence boost of recording a win.

That said, I don't think limping KTs is the huge mistake it is being made out to be in this thread. After all, would you raise K9s? I'm guessing that no one would. If so, you are practically forced to admit that KTs must be very close either way. KJs? ok, now I'd say a raise is best. KQs? This is about where I would say just limping is wrong.

[Joe Tall]

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After all, would you raise K9s?

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On the button, yes.

[heykev]

I feel I can play with just about anyone after the flop, I know by folding there I didn't make the correct play but I totally disagree with raising this hand preflop. I have been playing much higher limits for a long time and when I move down to these limits I actually tighten up alot based on the calling stations factor.

[Entity]

heykev,

You should be more inclined to raise this hand preflop because of calling stations, not less inclined.

Rob

[Joe Tall]

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I feel I can play with just about anyone after the flop, I know by folding there I didn't make the correct play but I totally disagree with raising this hand preflop. I have been playing much higher limits for a long time and when I move down to these limits I actually tighten up alot based on the calling stations factor.

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Have Joe give me a call next time you are headed down, we'll play some 20/40 together.

[lil feller]

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I was clearly the best player at the table and thought I would be better suited getting my money into another pot where I would be much more of a favorite.

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This is something a tournament player would say. Don't take this the wrong way, as it isn't meant to be insulting, but limit hold'em cash games are about making the play with the highest EV at all times, not avoiding the marginal ones and waiting for just the big ones. This certainly creates more variance, but is the only way to maximize your winrate. If you're truly serious about becoming an expert limit holdem player, I suggest you get out of the tournament "wait for a better spot" mentality, honestly and accurately evaluate every situation, and exploit every +EV situation to its fullest potential.

This hand against a field this horrible is certainly +EV, and so is calling the turn, even against a set. Assume the same pot size in terms of big bets (not dollars)/action, would you have called if it weren't a kill pot?

lf

EDIT cuz I suck at typing

[heykev]

I am definitely an established cash player and you make a very good point about if it wasn't a kill. I agree now after looking back that I was getting the right EV, but I also feel good about folding because if you are not able to make a big laydown or fold a draw sometimes you are not really putting everything you can into your game. I know your response is going to be that laying down a draw with the right EV can never really be correct but I am not totally upset with my laydown whether the spade hit or not. I understand what you mean by the tournament mentality but I think it is OK to bring that thinking over to limit based on all the new players at the tables.