Poker hurts

[MickeyT]

This is from a recent multi-table 7stud high tourney I played in. I had just worked my way back into a reasonable position after being down at 150 chips when this hand came along.
Why does poker hurt so much!?!?!?

Tournament - 7 Card Stud High (300/600), Ante 50, Bring-In 100

Hero: (1397)
Seat 3: (942)
Seat 4: (3644)
Seat 5: (2952)
Seat 6: (1291)
Seat 7: (6398)
Seat 8: (8403)

3rd Street

Hero: T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___completes
Seat 3: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 4: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 5: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 6: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 7: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___brings-in___calls

4th Street

Hero: T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 7: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls

5th Street

Hero: T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets___calls (all-in)
Seat 8: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___raises

6th Street

Hero: T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___all-in
Seat 8: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

River

Hero: T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___all-in
Seat 8: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx

Results:

Hero: balance 0, lost 1397 [ Ts As Qs 8s 9d 5c Kh ] [ high card ace -- As,Kh,Qs,Ts,9d ]
Seat 8: balance 10350, bet 1850, collected 3797, net +1947 [ 3d 2c 2h Td 5h 4d Jd ] [ a pair of twos -- Jd,Td,5h,2c,2h ]

[zaxx19]

Why NLH is the best game for tourneys....

[jon_1van]

ok...time to gamble. You have 1400 chips. 2 whole BB. get it all in.

But

You probably should have checked 5th street. You will get all in no matter how you slice it. You should wait until you have higher folding equity. Because it is possible the opponent wanted to see if he could eleminate you. Players will often play less than spectacular hands when it can't get expensive because the opponent is very short stacked. If he is this type of player you want to put your money in when his hope of improvement is almost gone.

This way you survive the hand more often. You might give your opponent a chance to make a good fold. But you won't risk losing to a rivered baby 2 pair as often

tough break....at least you weren't sucked out on

[PoorLawyer]

really no choice but to get your money in here....you have so many options, that it really is just a tough break you didn't hit. Hopefully it was a large tourney at least so you made out ok. At some point you need to just take a chance in these tourneys. I finally won my first large MTT the other day with a couple lucky hands holding up.....too bad it was hold em instead of stud!!!

[Andy B]

When exactly do you think he will have higher folding equity? Sixth street? No one folds on sixth street. The river? Probably not. I think he has to bet fifth, in part because that's his best chance to get the other guy to fold.

And yeah, you just have to go down with a draw this big. No two ways about it.

[Hauser_III]

Jon, I disagree with checking on 5th, because I also don't see when this hand might achieve greater folding equity. Hero completed the bring-in with a Q up, when there's two other Q's on the board, and the bring-in villain came along for the ride. So the villain, looking at hero's hand, should be thinking one of four things: hero's on a flush draw, a straight draw, a buried pair, or a steal attempt. Hero's fourth street card definitely hits the potential flush draw, might have hit the potential straight draw, and is an overcard to villain's pair, and villain nonetheless called the 4th street bet and showed that he's not going to go anywhere. That, to me, indicates that villain has made up his mind that either hero is on a steal or that villain, knowing hero is short-stacked and the hand can't cost him any more than 1397 chips, is willing to go to the mat with his pair of 2's and see if he can suck out. He proved it by raising on 5th when hero catches a 3rd card that fits nicely into the straight draw. If hero checks 5th, I think villain would interpret it as the confirmation that hero really is weak, that hero was on the steal attempt, and probably won't fold even if hero hits something better on 6th than the 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] that hero actually caught.

If this particular villain's getting out, I'd say the only chance to make it happen is by getting him to fold to a 5th street bet, not by checking and betting 6th on another good card. Villain has the table chip lead and is willing to gamble/bully with it.

Edit: At this late stage, as short-stacked as hero is, I don't think he should want to create folding equity by checking 5th and then hoping he hits good enough on 6th to cause villain to fold. Hero, with a drawing hand this good, should want villain to get hero all-in on 5th, so he can either hit and double up, or go down swinging. If hero checks, and then hits the 3rd spade up on 6th, any rational villain (which I'm not sure this one is) would fold, given the relatively small pot size, which means hero would pull in just a small pot on his made flush. At this stage of the tourney, that's not the result I want.

[MickeyT]

Great analysis, Hauser. I think you've hit the nail on the head in that villain was just willing to attempt a suck-out in order to bust me off the table.
That's the kind of play i like from my opponents since it will usually turn my short stack into a medium stack.

Was I correct to complete on 3rd st with 2 Qs out already or was i giving too much away by doing so?

[Hauser_III]

[ QUOTE ]
was i giving too much away by doing so?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think you're giving away too much. Three to a straight flush has a lot of pot equity, and it plays well against multiple players or heads up, so you're happy whether your completion gets called by a number of callers, or gets you isolated against one or two other player. The completion with 2 q's out almost certainly reveals that you don't have split q's, but still doesn't define whether you're on a flush draw, a straight draw or have a buried pair.

[perfecto]

[ QUOTE ]
Why does poker hurt so much!?!?!?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry, I thought this was the question. However, nobody has seen fit to try to answer it.

Why? Because none of us can see through our tears clearly enough to find the keyboard. Nowadays its all mouse driven anyway.

[timmer]

I think I would of just called 3rd and tried to take this hand against a bigger field