Pot Odds and the Flop/Turn Dynamic

[GrandmaStabone]

Pot odds on the flop have always been a gray area for me. That is not to say that I am completely lost here, just that I have yet to set a "standard". On the turn pot odds are easy, but on the flop there are more factors to consider with two cards coming and a doubled betting round impending.

There are many ways to figure pot odds. I am familiar with "outs times 2 plus 2" as well as DIPO. In the end however, like many others here, I have just memorized the outs/odds chart (for the flop and river). But as I mentioned, on the flop it's not just about comparing my odds to improve to the odds from the pot. An example comes from page 49 of "The Theory of poker" in the section on "Effective Odds"

you have a flush draw on the flop in a $10-$20 game with $20 in the pot. You are facing a $10 bet. Now, the odds for this flush draw on the flop are 1.8 to 1, and the pot is laying you 3 to 1, indicating a call. The problem is that the 1.8 to 1 number assumes you are going to the river, and most of the time you will pay an additional bet to get there. If you factor the $20 bet on the turn your odds are not $30 to $10 (3 to 1) but 50 to 30 (1 2/3 to 1, indicating a fold).


So here is the textbook answer to figuring pot odds on the flop, but that is a lot of work to do in the heat of battle. I was wondering what you guys do in this situation, or if there was a "standard", a rule of thumb so to speak. I notice a lot of people just use the flop odds (which is wrong, right?). Other times, such as in here
the odds for the turn are quoted on the flop (14.6 to 1).

Anyways, like I said I just wanted to clarify this issue so I don't always have the nagging feeling that I might be handling this incorrectly.

[xenthebrain]

Use the odds from flop to turn. But they are nearly the same than from turn to river, since you just have one card more information und one card less in the deck.

[GrandmaStabone]

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Use the odds from flop to turn. But they are nearly the same than from turn to river, since you just have one card more information und one card less in the deck.

[/ QUOTE ]


Nearly the same? 6 outs is 3.1 to 1 on the flop, it is 6.6 to 1 on the turn.

A better example, 4 outs, is 5 to 1 on the flop and 10.5 to 1 on the turn. Let's say I have a gutshot sraight draw on the flop in a 1-2 game. There is $5 in the pot, UTG bets and it is folded to me. I am getting 6 to 1 on a 5 to 1 draw, using your logic I call. Now there is $7 in the pot. Again villain bets, and now I am getting 7 to 1 on a 10.5 to 1 draw and cannot continue, but when I called on the flop I was ASSUMING I COULD CONTINUE TO THE RIVER.


Am I missing something?

[Rev. Good Will]

using stand-alone pot odds, you usually use for to the turn only, but this is a good part for me to hijack this thread and bring up when evaluating the action on the flop, you must consider implied odds as well

for instance, in your example, you are being offered 1:3 on a call. if you used only pot odds, clear fold being you need a little more than 1:4 to call. If we factored implied odds into it, lets say you catch g00t on turn, villian bets, and you raise. You just made up 2 bets you didn't have, so based off implied odds on catching on the turn alone, you changed your odds to being offered 1:5, thus making it a profitable call

[fizzleboink]

Treat the flop to turn dynamic seperate from the turn to river dynamic. Since it sounds like you read King Yao's book (because of DIPO), you probably know what I am talking about.

From the flop to the turn, you are 4.2 to 1 to make your flush I believe. The immediate pot odds are 3 to 1, indicating a fold. However, if you factor in implied odds, you will probably recover 2 SB's easily and maybe even 4 SB's if he calls a raise by you on the turn (thus making the odds 5 to 1 or possibly 7 to 1 indicating a call). Notice how I'm not even thinking about the river right now.

[Rev. Good Will]

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[ QUOTE ]
Use the odds from flop to turn. But they are nearly the same than from turn to river, since you just have one card more information und one card less in the deck.

[/ QUOTE ]


Nearly the same? 6 outs is 3.1 to 1 on the flop, it is 6.6 to 1 on the turn.

A better example, 4 outs, is 5 to 1 on the flop and 10.5 to 1 on the turn. Let's say I have a gutshot sraight draw on the flop in a 1-2 game. There is $5 in the pot, UTG bets and it is folded to me. I am getting 6 to 1 on a 5 to 1 draw, using your logic I call. Now there is $7 in the pot. Again villain bets, and now I am getting 7 to 1 on a 10.5 to 1 draw and cannot continue, but when I called on the flop I was ASSUMING I COULD CONTINUE TO THE RIVER.


Am I missing something?

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, you are using odds assuming you went striaght from flop to river.

it is very annoying and not pratical to use odds from turn to river because you have to anticipate the action, and in genereral, takes longer to figure out if you were only calculating for the next card

if we were to do that, lets assume that villian will always bet in these situations

we risked 2 bets (calling on flop and turn) to win 7 bets (5 initially, and the 2 from villian betting)

2:7 = 1:3.5, and with 1:5 to catch by river, it is a clear fold

you should be using odds to catch for the next card almost always, from flop to river is usually only used pratically for NLHE where you go all in on the flop and don't pay anything on the turn to see the next card

[GrandmaStabone]

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Use the odds from flop to turn. But they are nearly the same than from turn to river, since you just have one card more information und one card less in the deck.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wait a minute I see what you are saying, use the odds from the turn to river to calculate the odds from flop to turn, treating the turn/river decision completely seperate.

I like this idea, you guys have just blown my mind.

[xenthebrain]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Use the odds from flop to turn. But they are nearly the same than from turn to river, since you just have one card more information und one card less in the deck.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wait a minute I see what you are saying, use the odds from the turn to river to calculate the odds from flop to turn, treating the turn/river decision completely seperate.

I like this idea, you guys have just blown my mind.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well actually I said use the odds from flop to turn on the flop and the odds from turn to flop on the turn.
But since they are nearly the same it probably doesn't matter.
However, I have memorized the most recent odds for both streets (with one decimal).

[Rev. Good Will]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Use the odds from flop to turn. But they are nearly the same than from turn to river, since you just have one card more information und one card less in the deck.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wait a minute I see what you are saying, use the odds from the turn to river to calculate the odds from flop to turn, treating the turn/river decision completely seperate.

I like this idea, you guys have just blown my mind.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well actually I said use the odds from flop to turn on the flop and the odds from turn to flop on the turn.
But since they are nearly the same it probably doesn't matter.
However, I have memorized the most recent odds for both streets (with one decimal).

[/ QUOTE ]

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[GrandmaStabone]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Use the odds from flop to turn. But they are nearly the same than from turn to river, since you just have one card more information und one card less in the deck.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wait a minute I see what you are saying, use the odds from the turn to river to calculate the odds from flop to turn, treating the turn/river decision completely seperate.

I like this idea, you guys have just blown my mind.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well actually I said use the odds from flop to turn on the flop and the odds from turn to flop on the turn.
But since they are nearly the same it probably doesn't matter.
However, I have memorized the most recent odds for both streets (with one decimal).

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh I see. I think my flawed logic comes from the odds chart I have been using (and memorized) since I started playing poker. It has odds from flop to river and turn to river. Well, it seems that I have found a rather large leak and I am glad I asked. Can someone link me a chart that has the flop to turn odds?