Should You Quit Your Day Job? — Part I

[BeerMoney]

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It's a big planet. There are an awful lot of very talented people in the world that would love to make $20/hour hard currency multitabling 0.5/1. Underemployed people in less developed countries are one of the primary long-term threats to the income of professional players.

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I said this a long time ago, and I'm surprised the Chinese or Indians haven't started doing this yet.

[chezlaw]

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Chez, why does your experience mean diddly squat?

M

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I can't think of any better illustration than the last few posts.

I claim a few assumptions mean an excellent chance of being a sucessful pro. Dr Al says this is absurd and makes an appeal to experience. I claim even more experience. Maybe Dr Al could go and get some even more experienced pros to agree with him. Maybe I could then go and find some even more experienced online pro to agree with me etc. etc.

Why sould any of this convince anyone of anything? Anyone who wants to understand anything needs to consider the arguments not who is making the argument.

chez

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Anyone who is seriously considering turning pro should look at a DVD, "Poker Bustouts." I believe it was a show on HBO.

It gives a dramatic picture of the other side of being a pro. It is not a pretty picture.

Regards,

Al

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Hello hustlers, grinders, and railbirds,

I'd like to thank Dr. Al for mentioning the documentary "Poker Bustouts" in this forum, as it is relevant to the subject at hand. The film features 17 poker pros with over 400 combined years of tournament and cash game experience. Most of them solely gamble for a living. As the reality of the life is unveiled, the unique communal aspects of the poker world are perpetually in motion: borrowing, lending, hustling, and railbirding. A colorful picture is painted, but the subject matter is somewhat disturbing. There exists a cyclical poker hierarchy, from the successful to the survivors. So, be good to the people on the way up because you'll be seeing them on the way back down. The words "poker" and "career" should hardly ever be used in conjunction.

We have not explored the electronic form of poker and don't know much about it, but it seems there are many people making a living through internet poker alone. I see a bunch of replies like, "That does not apply to internet poker." If I may, I'd like to ask a few questions.

A professional live action player with good "poker room credit" can go broke but always stay in action. How do internet players stay in action when they bust?

Most players have severe burnout game-wise and gamble-wise. Do internet players burn out faster because they play so many hands/games? Also, do they have other gambling "hobbies"?

A player can always get a comp for a meal. Will bonuses, rakeback, and "host" jobs always be available to the electronic player?

Poker is like the French Foreign Legion. Nobody cares about your past and you have no future. A guy who played poker for the past ten years, wether a bustout or a success, is not appealing to a potential employer and often has little or no conventional occupational skills. Would this apply to someone who plays on the internet?

It seems to me that internet players are not immune to the potential pitfalls that can afflict live players. We did not even get into cheating or resisting the urge to play higher. Dr. Al's article is a fine example of the type of advice that the bustouts in "Poker Bustouts" needed twenty years ago. Enjoy the trailer at www.pokerbustouts.com

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"There's two kinds of birds that don't fly: jailbirds and railbirds. I've been them both."
-Mike "The Bum" Tullis

[Sniper]

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as it is relevant to the subject at hand. The film features 17 poker pros with over 400 combined years of tournament and cash game experience. Most of them solely gamble for a living.

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The successful Limit poker pro wannabe is not a "gambler", he/she is a "grinder"; treating poker as a business, whether full or part time.

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We have not explored the electronic form of poker and don't know much about it, but it seems there are many people making a living through internet poker alone.

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"Many" people is a relative term. In terms of percentages roughly 7-8% of online players are winners, many of those for only a small amount. Its reasonable to assume that a good portion of those players that would be considered fairly active, are reading/posting on these forums.

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Most players have severe burnout game-wise and gamble-wise. Do internet players burn out faster because they play so many hands/games?

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Internet poker players under the age of 40, grew up playing video games. Im sure some would tell you that the action is slower playing 4 tables online than they are used to in most of the video games they played.

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A player can always get a comp for a meal. Will bonuses, rakeback, and "host" jobs always be available to the electronic player?

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There is no reason to believe that these marketing tools will go away in the forseeable future.

[StellarWind]

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Will bonuses, rakeback, and "host" jobs always be available to the electronic player?

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Actually this is a bright spot in the coming storm.

Internet poker rooms are at least as vulnerable to any bust scenario as the pros. There are so many sites and more keep entering the market. Increased competition for fewer players means the rake will have to drop and that will make it easier to beat the games.

Note that by "rake" I mean the actual cost to play. Bonuses and rakeback are just tricky ways of discounting. The recent rapid spread/increase of rakeback in the Party skins and many smaller sites is the first stage of the coming price war.

what do you guys consider to be a good gross annual income?

[Sniper]

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what do you guys consider to be a good gross annual income?

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The answer to this will vary greatly depending on who you talk to... mainly because of the differences in lifestyle and expenses around the globe.

A good annual income is one that exceeds the expenses of the lifestyle you wish to live by a wide enough margin to allow you to also invest a significant amount for the future, when you will continue to live the lifestyle you wish off of the residual income from your investments.

What do YOU consider to be a good gross annual income?

[Sniper]

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What do YOU consider to be a good gross annual income?

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JW, I think I already answered that, but if you want me to put a number on it...

I don't think any person in the U.S. dedicated to their own success should be happy earning less than 6 figures, so $100K+/yr from all streams of income.

Playing poker may never really have been meant to be a life-long profession. There's plenty of ways to start with nothing and end up with something. In poker, you're a favorite to end end up with nothing- even if you start with something.

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The successful Limit poker pro wannabe is not a "gambler", he/she is a "grinder"; treating poker as a business, whether full or part time.

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After 20 years of sitting at a poker table listening to baseball, basketball, football, hockey, tennis, boxing, golf, etc. picks (locks), the limit hold'em grinder becomes a gambler. Poker players have the uncanny ability to convince each other and themselves of the "right" move.

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"Many" people is a relative term. In terms of percentages roughly 7-8% of online players are winners, many of those for only a small amount. Its reasonable to assume that a good portion of those players that would be considered fairly active, are reading/posting on these forums.

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So, would it be fair to say that 5% beat work (make as much or more than they would in the workforce)? That sales job looks a lot better now, and your lotto habit now seems justifiable.


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Internet poker players under the age of 40, grew up playing video games. Im sure some would tell you that the action is slower playing 4 tables online than they are used to in most of the video games they played.

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Kids play video games for a month and never look at them again. How long can these guys "beat" this game before they move on to something bigger, something newer, something fresher? There is no evidence of sustainability of success on the internet. I understand that we have a limited window to view, but there is also little evidence that someone can retire on middle limit live games at casinos over the past 40 years.

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There is no reason to believe that these marketing tools will go away in the forseeable future.

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When this type of market situation exists- look at the energy, steel, railroad, automobile, or pro sports industries- caveat emptor. In such a period of dynamic demand, no common man is safe from greed, collusion, and brigandage.