With a Little Help From My Friend?

[Howard Burroughs]

Okay, since I've already showed what an idiot I am with a few recent hands; why not go for the trifecta :-)

I just got back from the Mirage 6-12 hold'em (after a pit stop at Binion's).


I'm in the 1 seat. A very nice tourist is talking to me about a multitude of subjects in the 2 seat.
A hand comes up where the cut-off open raises. I 3-bet with AT suited (I'm feeling frisky). We lose both blinds & the cut-off calls my reraise.

I bet the ragged flop and turn after he checks. He calls both streets.

btw, before I bet the turn, I know I've picked up a straight draw. X79, 8 (rainbow).


I sense the guy is week, and I'm happy if he just lays it down (weak could still be 44 which beats my ace).

As the river card is dealt, I notice the $80-$160 asian woman from my "Nice Catch" post at the table next to mine (A tournament table).


Our eyes meet. I smile at her. She looks at me and stares (as if to see if it's really the same guy that caused pandemonium and mass havoc at Binion's the other night).
She realizes it's me and quickly looks away.


I feel kind of uneasy about the whole thing and all of a sudden I remember, "I'm still in hand!".


Like Dorothy at the end of the Wizard of Ozz, it was time for me to wake up to the reality of the game.

"It's checked to you" the dealer tells me. The river brought a jack. Forgetting about the straight draw I picked up on the turn (where I now rivered it), I bet my ace high thinking he won't have the gumption to call another $12 with his junk I'm putting him on.

When he calls, I know I'm in a world of hurt (well as much hurt as losing $12 can cause :-)


As I table my hand, like an idiot I say "beat my ace high". He tables KJ-off. The dealer scoops my face-up hand and off into the muck it goes.

As she is grabbing the pot, the nice tourist on my left says,"He has a straight".

The dealer says, "He said he had ace high". "It's cards speak!" says my new friend from the great American mid-west.

The dealer says "they are in the muck". The 2 seat says "Yea, YOU put them in the muck. Turn them over, you'll see he has a ten for the straight".


She does not turn over my cards in the muck but she stops and looks at the flop and sees that a ten does in deed make a straight.

She says "well, ten makes a straight" and pushes me the pot (without ever turning my hand back over btw it was now face down but retrievable IMO).

The KJ man never said a word. I never said a word. No one at the table ever asked for the floor.


I take three redbirds and put them on my new friend's stack of chips. He gives them back, I insist. He accepts. I tip the dealer more then my usual.



He tells me later that he never gets involved in situations like this but I'm the first poker player he's talked to in Vegas that was nice to him. When he tried to strike up conversations with others, he said they brushed him off. He mentioned that if it were not for the fact that him and I were talking in between hands, he never would have spoken up and been so vocal.


************************



Except for the fact that I'm an idiot, the questions I have are?


1) Did I do anything wrong by accepting the pot pushed to me?


2) It's a $101 pot after rake. I gave back $19 between the 2 seat and the dealer. I felt it was the right thing to do and the amount felt "right".

Do you give more or less reward money out if in my shoes?

I know it could be said that the dealer deserves not being rewarded for mucking the winning in the first place but she also did not call the floor (which may or may not have ruled in my favor).

3) Does it really pay to be nice or is this just a case of being in the right place at the right time?

4) What if the guy (2 seat) had been a local? It would have appeared like another case of a card room rewarding locals against tourists. It did not look that way in my case mind you for my guy had tourist written all over him (no disrespect intended).



btw, It seems that I'm always on the other end of these helpful neighbor river situations. It felt good to be on the receiving end of it for a change.

Thanks for reading and thanks in advance for any input.

Best of Luck

Howard

[Punker]

1) Did I do anything wrong by accepting the pot pushed to me?

->You had the best hand and showed it. What are you talking about?? Playing limit poker in a casino is about not having to know what the hell is going on (you get your cards, ask the dealer what you can do, then show your hand and they tell you if you won). Your obligation is to turn over your cards, which you fulfilled.

2) It's a $101 pot after rake. I gave back $19 between the 2 seat and the dealer. I felt it was the right thing to do and the amount felt "right". Do you give more or less reward money out if in my shoes? I know it could be said that the dealer deserves not being rewarded for mucking the winning in the first place but she also did not call the floor (which may or may not have ruled in my favor).

->The dealer gets SFA from me in this spot. I turn over my cards, no matter whether I say ace high or state the pledge of allegiance, I expect to be awarded the pot if I have the best hand. I buy the guy who pointed it out a drink. You are worried the floor will come over and hear "He showed his hand and it was the best hand, and the dealer mucked it." and he's not going to rule in your favor?? I'll tell you why the dealer didn't call the floor: she didn't want to get in trouble for making a mistake.

3) Does it really pay to be nice or is this just a case of being in the right place at the right time?

->I don't understand your question.

4) What if the guy (2 seat) had been a local? It would have appeared like another case of a card room rewarding locals against tourists. It did not look that way in my case mind you for my guy had tourist written all over him (no disrespect intended).

->Cards speak is the be all and end all. If you thought it was going to drive some fish out of the game, you could offer to split the pot or give him his last bet back or whatever. In this spot, you know you screwed up and can usually therefore fake contrite embarassment with some sincerity.

[Howard Burroughs]

Thanks Punker for the input.


"I turn over my cards, no matter whether I say ace high or state the pledge of allegiance, I expect to be awarded the pot if I have the best hand."


That's a great line Punker.


"You are worried the floor will come over and hear "He showed his hand and it was the best hand, and the dealer mucked it." and he's not going to rule in your favor??"


No offence, but I've seen the craziest rulings over the years.
Just because you think you have an open & shut case does not always mean the floor will do the right thing.




"I'll tell you why the dealer didn't call the floor: she didn't want to get in trouble for making a mistake."


You've got me there.


3) Does it really pay to be nice or is this just a case of being in the right place at the right time?


"I don't understand your question."

My bad punker.

Talking with players I know who are far more gifted, talented, etc at this game then I am; there seems to be two camps as far as how you should treat tourists at the table when they want to engage in conversation.


These two camps go something like this......

Camp 1) Don't let a jabberjaw talk your ear off. You need to pay attention to what's going on in the game. If they start talking to you, nip it in the bud. Who cares if they get mad at you. I remember when a widely respected top Vegas hold'em player (LM) was posting here (2+2). Some of his post were in this vain. I don't remember his exact words but he said something along the lines of 'so what' when asked, don't you mind if you're taking a tourist out of a gambling mood. Maybe not the exact words but something along those lines.


LM is not alone in camp 1.


Camp 2) My 30-60 pro friend likes to say that he is in the entertainment business. He wants to make sure that rich people who are on vacation and wonder over to his 30-60 table are made to feel comfortable.


From reading Clark's posts, I believe he is a camp 2 hardliner as well (I mean that as a good thing btw).


******************************


I just always try to be myself. I like people and I like poker. In the 6-12 Mirage last night, not being anti-social, helped my stack size after a careless misstake on my part.


But someone from camp one could easily reply, "Yea, but what information do you miss when you are engaged in conversation with a talkative tourist".


And maybe they are right


Thanks again for the input.


Best of Luck

Howard

[bernie]

"1) Did I do anything wrong by accepting the pot pushed to me? "

no. you won the pot. you had the best hand.


"2) It's a $101 pot after rake. I gave back $19 between the 2 seat and the dealer. I felt it was the right thing to do and the amount felt "right". "

whatever makes ya happy. if it makes ya feel good, do it. i just wouldnt make a habit of it. but once in a blue moon it's not a big deal. however, i wouldnt have tipped the dealer on this one. and i would have told him why if he gave me any look or asked. not that i wouldnt have tipped on later hands, but the dealer screwed up. every 'good' dealer knows it's cardspeak. there's no 'he said he had...' BS.

"Do you give more or less reward money out if in my shoes? '

personally, i wouldnt have given any. but i can see your point in giving. except the dealer.

"I know it could be said that the dealer deserves not being rewarded for mucking the winning in the first place but she also did not call the floor (which may or may not have ruled in my favor). "

the floor wouldve ruled in your favor. cardspeak. if your really wondering, look at the rules posted on the wall (every cardroom has them posted) and it will clarify it. especially if you have a witness to your hand. i wouldve called for the floor if they didnt push it my way.

"3) Does it really pay to be nice or is this just a case of being in the right place at the right time? "

personal choice. i still disagree with the dealer tip.

"4) What if the guy (2 seat) had been a local? It would have appeared like another case of a card room rewarding locals against tourists. It did not look that way in my case mind you for my guy had tourist written all over him (no disrespect intended). "

doesnt matter, you were entitled to the pot. if they wouldve called the floor and given the pot to the losing hand, it wouldve been the last hand i played in there.

cya

b

[bernie]

"But someone from camp one could easily reply, "Yea, but what information do you miss when you are engaged in conversation with a talkative tourist". "

when youre sitting at a table for hours with mostly the same guys, youll get the ebb and flow of the table. youll kind of know how everyone plays. of course, the more experienced the quicker your assessment. talking with players also gives you a line on their play if you know what to listen for. along with maintaining a friendly atmosphere.

besides, you can talk and watch at the same time cant ya? you dont have to take the tourist and go get a private table for the conversation.

that said, some things i try to avoid in conversation is talking about how id play hands. not to say i wouldnt try to get the other guy to talk about how he'd play hands. but when he asks my opinion, id say something quick, then turn it back to him. as if i may be learning from him. heh heh.

what's really funny are the real 'serious' lookin guys who dont talk. they just want to 'concentrate' should they miss anything, but then you watch them play. they dont know what to look for nor how to play. but they like 'looking' the part. those guys arent that common, but they are entertaining.

you may also find that you may play a little better with conversation. you may be more relaxed to pick up other info that you may have missed if youd been more in(tense) in the game. styles vary from player to player. do what makes ya play better AND what helps you enjoy the game the most.

cya

b

[Homer]

I'd buy the tourist a beer or four, rather than giving him chips.

I'd stiff the dealer because he made a mistake and only grudgingly corrected it.

-- Homer

[Ray Zee]

howard,

always be nice as its the best way to live.

quickly yell for the floor in cases like this as you will get the pot. it doesnt matter what you had said you can always change that by claiming you meant beat my straight. and its the dealers job or give you the pot. which she did to save her butt.

you got rewarded for being a nice guy for once. you didnt owe him anything, and think about it. his reward was helping someone he liked. by giving him money it lessens his experience.

the dealer deserves nothing as he almost cost you the pot. why tip him for doing something wrong and against your best interests. so what if he corrected it. he had to.

another case of you being lucky. maybe that asian woman is some kind of charm for you. follow her around and play in her games, i bet you stay lucky.

[Bob T.]

besides, you can talk and watch at the same time cant ya?

Sure he can, he rivered the second nuts, and didn't even know [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img] . LOL.

[andyfox]

1) Did I do anything wrong by accepting the pot pushed to me?

-Of course not. It is cards speak. You cannot lose a hand by announcing a hand lower than you actually have.


2) It's a $101 pot after rake. I gave back $19 between the 2 seat and the dealer. I felt it was the right thing to do and the amount felt "right".

Do you give more or less reward money out if in my shoes?

-Irrelevant. You give the amount that feels right to you and it is right.

I know it could be said that the dealer deserves not being rewarded for mucking the winning in the first place but she also did not call the floor (which may or may not have ruled in my favor).

3) Does it really pay to be nice or is this just a case of being in the right place at the right time?

-Whether it pays to be nice should not, IMHO, be an issue. One should be nice because other human beings appreciate it. Life can be tough; if you can bring a smile to someone else's face, and they to yours, it makes the world go round a bit smoother.

4) What if the guy (2 seat) had been a local? It would have appeared like another case of a card room rewarding locals against tourists. It did not look that way in my case mind you for my guy had tourist written all over him (no disrespect intended).

-Yes, maybe it wouldn't have looked quite the same, but you did turn over the best hand.

btw, It seems that I'm always on the other end of these helpful neighbor river situations. It felt good to be on the receiving end of it for a change.

-Of course. Nice people have nice things happen to them. It's not the reason to be nice, but it ain't a bad pay-off for being so anyway. The fact that you feel some remorse about making a mistake that might possibly have been interpreted as something other than an honest mistake shows why this nice thing happened to you.

Good man.

[jim grass]

Hey there guy.
first howie cards speek.
second whether you tip the dealer is your choice.knowing the kind of guy you are i would of expected you to tip.Your a man of an easy going nature.
She should of checked your hand though before mucking it even though you overlooked the straight.
I also must say here that I do not converse during a hand and if i need to ignore someone speeking to me thats ok cause i`ll explain after the hand why i ignored them.
Your giving a player a few chips seems quite classy to me.
As you know howie i put a post in our group about making the game more pleasurable and you behaviour and attitude exhibits what this game needs. [img]/forums/images/icons/cool.gif[/img]

jim