Table Image EV

[callydrias]

Live $8/$16 last night. I have a very tight and solid image at the table and I'm getting no action at a very loose table (usually 4-7 to the flop). Twice in a couple hours I've opened from EP/MP with AA and won the blinds preflop. Then this hand came up (which, by the way, is not at all indicative of the action I was usually getting):

Villain 1 (TAG) is a possible 2+2er - semi-tight, pretty aggressive, and has been paying attention to my play. I've tangled with him a couple times and know he can fold. He's also a pretty good hand reader. Villain 2 is a LAG luckbox - plays any two cards, bets any two cards, and is up huge. He will fold on the river if he doesn't have a hand.

Preflop: Hero is MP w/ xx.
1 fold, 1 limp, TAG limps, Hero raises, LAG calls, SB folds, BB calls

Flop: T 2 5 rainbow
2 checks, TAG bets, Hero raises, LAG calls, TAG calls, everyone else folds

Turn: 9
TAG checks, Hero bets, LAG calls, TAG calls

At this point, both villains are muttering about what I could be holding.

River: A
(LAG says out loud, "If you weren't there before, you got there now." I agree and repeat his sentiment.)
TAG checks, Hero bets, LAG looks back and forth from the board to his cards several times and finally mucks, TAG sighs, thinks for a minute and mucks

I say to the guy on my left who I've been chatting on and off with, "Think this will get me any more action?" and flip over my KQo.

So that's the story, but here's the question: In my situation, was showing that bluff + or - EV? Will the action I get on my big hands later offset the times when I can push around the smaller pots? Bluffing like that is completely against my normal style, which is probably why it worked, but would you have flipped your cards over in my place?

[callydrias]

Bump. I'd actually like to hear others' opinion on this.

[Moneyline]

I think showing was bad, especially coupled with your comment. It seems clear that you are doing this specifically just to try to get action on future hands, so I don't think anyone is likely to fall for it. If you have a rock's table image I don't think anyone is going to completely change their opionion of how you play.

I think there are a few situations in loose games where showing your hand when you don't have to is a good idea, but this does not seem like one of them.

[shant]

This is fine. It seems like before you had an "only bets when he's got it image." Now you'll get more action. The only problem is you've screwed yourself on getting people to make folds when you make bluffs like this again.

[LawsNStats]

I'm new to 2 + 2, what do you mean by TAG.

Any input on the abbreviations would be helpful.

Thanks

In my opinion it's a bad idea.
In a game like that, you want to be able to push people off their hands and you don't want them to get tricky.
So if you show, you show good hands.

If your preflop raises get too much respect, you should simply just raise preflop more often.

[PITTM]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm new to 2 + 2, what do you mean by TAG.

Any input on the abbreviations would be helpful.

Thanks

[/ QUOTE ]

tight and agressive. i believe there is an faq at the top of the page that explains these terms.

rj

edit: its the faq at the top of the single table tournaments forum with the abbreviations.

[elindauer]

here are two, contradictory thoughts:

1. any time people think you can play in a way that you normally never would, it's good for you

2. having people think you're so tight that they can fold for 1 bet in a big pot is a tremendously expoitable image, which you should fight hard to protect


I think 2 outweighs 1, and it's not close. In fact, having stolen this pot, I'd tighten up and make sure I show down a couple more winners because I think a few people will be suspicious of me anyways. I want them to see that, yes, I do always have it.


Good luck.
Eric

[DeathDonkey]

I much prefer they think I always have it. In fact I sometimes show great hands that lose or win without a showdown for this purpose. I assume this was at Desert Diamond, who was the TAG maybe 2+2er (PM me if you like)?

-DeathDonkey

[SeaEagle]

[ QUOTE ]
1. any time people think you can play in a way that you normally never would, it's good for you

2. having people think you're so tight that they can fold for 1 bet in a big pot is a tremendously expoitable image, which you should fight hard to protect


[/ QUOTE ]
1 outweighs 2. 2 is only valuable if you don't always have it (and 1 is in effect).

But I understand what I think your point is, that winning a pot when you don't have it is far more valuable than getting an extra bet or two when you do have it, so assuming the errors created by 1 are skewed toward one direction or other, you'd like to skew it towards 2.