Appearing Weak

I was running really bad two days ago and had a horrendous image at this one table in particular. The fish were getting out of my way and TAGs were iso-raising me. I think it was backwards day or some sh!t. Needless to say, I was missing flops and not faring well.

This one hand stood out in particular. I raised from MP, and it was folded around to a "TAG" (25/17/2.2) who 3-bet me with J8o from the BB. He flopped an 8 and rivered a Jack to beat my TT.

Anyway, here's the question:

Considering my image and the fact that I was "runover-able", is his preflop play EVER correct?

[DeadMoneyOC]

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of course not. Being oop and 3-betting with a marginal hand like J8o is a pretty bad play. When you say horrendous image though, do you mean like maniacal? or like so weak-tight and folding everything. Because if you were so weak-tight that you were folding most flops u got 3-bet before the flop, then reraising with any 2 cards against you might have made sense. On the other hand, if u were playing aggressive but missed every board and looked like you were a maniac, then everyone else should actually be picking better spots to isolate you, not getting into raising wars with trash hands.

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Because if you were so weak-tight that you were folding most flops u got 3-bet before the flop, then reraising with any 2 cards against you might have made sense.

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This is exactly what I wanted to hear someone say.

If you raise QJ in the CO and a TAG button 3-bets you, c/folding a 7 high flop isn't terrible. You don't have 6 clean outs all that often, so the best EV play is usually folding even with the pot laying 7:1 or 8:1. Then, 2 hands after that you raise A9s, get cold-called by a TAG and the flop comes QJ3 with none of your suit. You bet, he raises, you fold. Sometimes you actually take a stand against your opponent, and this time he has top two or whatever. Blah, Blah, Blah....we've all been there.

So, this guy with the J8o sees that happen a few times and (what I believe is incorrectly) assumes that I'm weak-tight and A) can't possibly start with a pair and B) will continue to keep missing flops because I'm "running bad".

I think his logic is way off base and highly flawed, but you seem to understand it. Thoughts?

[Danenania]

If you approach it that way then it's a math problem. You calling PF and check/folding on x% of flops makes his 3-bet immediately profitable with any two. With a hand as bad as J8o I'm sure x would have you making some ridiculous folds that no one would ever make, so 3-betting J8o in that spot is never profitable. However, if you are playing a misprogrammed bot who raises PF every hand, never caps a 3-bet, and check/folds 80% of his hands on the flop, then obviously you should 3-bet any two against him if you are HU after his raise (either because you're playing HU or it's folded to you) and you will show an immediate profit by doing so.

Very interesting.

Let's say people notice that you've bricked a few hands, and after you raise with QJs, you get 3-bet by a blind again, and this time you cap (which I've done before in this spot).

I know people justify that cap as shania, or as representing something better, or as they may have the best hand. Would you ever consider that abnormal cap to be a result of tilt? It's still possible that our opponents are just getting big hands, no?

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Because if you were so weak-tight that you were folding most flops u got 3-bet before the flop, then reraising with any 2 cards against you might have made sense.

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This is exactly what I wanted to hear someone say.

If you raise QJ in the CO and a TAG button 3-bets you, c/folding a 7 high flop isn't terrible. You don't have 6 clean outs all that often, so the best EV play is usually folding even with the pot laying 7:1 or 8:1. Then, 2 hands after that you raise A9s, get cold-called by a TAG and the flop comes QJ3 with none of your suit. You bet, he raises, you fold. Sometimes you actually take a stand against your opponent, and this time he has top two or whatever. Blah, Blah, Blah....we've all been there.

So, this guy with the J8o sees that happen a few times and (what I believe is incorrectly) assumes that I'm weak-tight and A) can't possibly start with a pair and B) will continue to keep missing flops because I'm "running bad".

I think his logic is way off base and highly flawed, but you seem to understand it. Thoughts?

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Yeah his logic is highly flawed because you aren't a weak tight player. He's messing with the wrong guy, and I'm sure you will let him know that. I guess the most important thing to notice here is that he is in fact pulling this stuff on you, so that you can take advantage of it. Let him bet into you and checkraise the turn/river for value, even if with a somewhat marginal hand. After hes spewed enough chips, I think he will stop.

Even against a weak tight player though, isolating with J8o is a terribly risky and idiotic play. For weak tight players especially, a raise from MP represents a decent amount of strength. For this to work out, you would need the kind of bot like Dane S was talkign about, and I've never seen a player match that description.

And as for capping with hands like QJs, it makes perfect sense. OF course, any hand, any villain could have AA, but we're talking about his complete 3-betting range, not just one possible hand. And the point is, since he thinks you're a poor player, he has expanded his 3-betting range. Thus QJs is even more of a favorite against him, so the cap could even be justified as slight value (although this is probably the least important reason), but more importantly to show the 3-bettor that you can't be bullied, etc. and these reasons fall under shania i guess.

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Thus QJs is even more of a favorite against him, so the cap could even be justified as slight value (although this is probably the least important reason), but more importantly to show the 3-bettor that you can't be bullied, etc. and these reasons fall under shania i guess.

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Or tilt. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

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Thus QJs is even more of a favorite against him, so the cap could even be justified as slight value (although this is probably the least important reason), but more importantly to show the 3-bettor that you can't be bullied, etc. and these reasons fall under shania i guess.

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Or tilt. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

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True, true.

[wackjob]

You capped his 3-bet PF right?