KK UTG

[bambi]

ok my three betting range to a solid tag out of the BB is, AA,KK,QQ,JJ,TT,AK,AQs, but if the BB is a muppet you can increase his range to include 99,88 maybe AJ

I bet the flop, must bet this flop nothing says i have KK more than checking this flop, but say you misclicked, i raise the turn which says ha ha your fuked i have AA, but he wont fold any A here so check behind on the turn.

[SNOWBALL138]

I really want to bet the flop here, but once I'm called, its really hard to not bet the turn. I fully expect villain to bet the river if I check behind on the turn because he might be using the "if you have a hand that is barely worth a call, you should bet" line. Given that I think that, I think checking/calling is good.

I think raising the turn would be a poor play because an ace that 3 bets from the SB is never folding, and who cares about folding out a hand like TT? Its much better to induce value bets.

With the way you played it, your turn effective odds were 6:2 or 3:1, so your hand needs to be good 25% of the time, not counting either your 2 outer or his possible 2 outer.

Here's the range I give him preflop:

JJ 6
KK 1
AA 3
AK 6
TT 3=(6)(.5)
QQ 3

I divided TT by 2 because Alex/Mugaaz has a good point about giving TT and JJ here equal weight. Anyway, this looks like a call on the turn, especially given that you checked the flop and his agg factor is fairly high.

However, you have to be fairly certain that villain is following the "I have to call if he bets line so I might as well bet". Because you can't be certain he's following this line, you have to fold the turn.

Sure, you could argue that his flop check indicated weakness, but I think this is much less of a factor than the relative improbability that villain is following the "better to bet than check call" line. The pot isn't big enough.

You really have to take the preflop 3 bet range, and truncate it after his turn bet. 3:1 effective odds is too little for this modified range. I think Alex/Mugaaz has a good point.

[WillMagic]

As I said, I fold. His range of hands includes a whole bunch that beat me and jacks. (Oh, and the one possible combo of KK) He's not calling my flop bet with jacks - at least I don't think he will.

Will

[flopmonster]

[ QUOTE ]
I throw out a flop bet so I don't lose this pot to JJ. After that no more money is going in the pot - if he can call my flop bet he's got me beat.

I think the WA/WB line sucks here, largely because you are way behind so much more often than you are way ahead, and putting in the full 2 big bets seems like a shitty way to find that out.

Will

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I really like this line

[flopmonster]

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Stop worrying about stuff like this. You have the opponents stats. You know his hand range. You know the right play. Don't worry about getting run over in tight full ring games.

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word

[pudley4]

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Once you check the flop through, isn't it with the intent of either raising or folding when bet to on the turn?

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I just want say, that theoretically raising the turn could be a cool FP that works against a specific type of player, but in all honesty I've never met this type of player, ever.

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Maybe if you have JJ or TT, and are trying to get him to fold a higher pair.

But when you have KK, what better hands could he have that he would fold? AA? QQ? AQ? AK? none of these are folding, most of them are 3-betting (except maybe AK which might go into calldown mode).

[Alex/Mugaaz]

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Once you check the flop through, isn't it with the intent of either raising or folding when bet to on the turn?

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I just want say, that theoretically raising the turn could be a cool FP that works against a specific type of player, but in all honesty I've never met this type of player, ever.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe if you have JJ or TT, and are trying to get him to fold a higher pair.

But when you have KK, what better hands could he have that he would fold? AA? QQ? AQ? AK? none of these are folding, most of them are 3-betting (except maybe AK which might go into calldown mode).

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I thought my most was clear that I agreed with all of this and that's why I think it's virtually never worth doing. Just to be clear, I AGREE.

[lozen]

[ QUOTE ]
I throw out a flop bet so I don't lose this pot to JJ. After that no more money is going in the pot - if he can call my flop bet he's got me beat.

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I play a ton at Pokerroom 5/10 and i agree with the above