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  #11  
Old 10-23-2005, 04:39 PM
Borodog Borodog is offline
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Default Re: Live 4/8 hand

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This hand qualifies for WAWB, I would rethink your line.

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Good point.
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  #12  
Old 10-23-2005, 04:39 PM
NateDog NateDog is offline
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Default Re: Live 4/8 hand

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I felt leading the flop was the worst option available at the time. Live games play funny.

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Why? There are 3 people with position on you. There are no draws on the board. You raised pre-flop. You're supposed to like an Ace on the board. Bet out and see where you are.

I could understand checking the flop if there were 5 behind you, but 3? Quite frankly, I bet this hand until someone raises me.

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This hand qualifies for WAWB, I would rethink your line.

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My line IS wa/wb.
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  #13  
Old 10-23-2005, 04:50 PM
Borodog Borodog is offline
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Default Re: Live 4/8 hand

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I felt leading the flop was the worst option available at the time. Live games play funny.

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Why? There are 3 people with position on you. There are no draws on the board. You raised pre-flop. You're supposed to like an Ace on the board. Bet out and see where you are.

I could understand checking the flop if there were 5 behind you, but 3? Quite frankly, I bet this hand until someone raises me.

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This hand qualifies for WAWB, I would rethink your line.

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My line IS wa/wb.

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He was refering to my line of betting until raised. And The more I look at your line, the more I like it. If he doesn't have an ace, he may well check behind on the river, costing you value. If he does have an ace, the way you played the hand is suspicious enough that he likely can't raise. Are you folding to a river raise?
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  #14  
Old 10-23-2005, 04:52 PM
NateDog NateDog is offline
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Default Re: Live 4/8 hand

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I felt leading the flop was the worst option available at the time. Live games play funny.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? There are 3 people with position on you. There are no draws on the board. You raised pre-flop. You're supposed to like an Ace on the board. Bet out and see where you are.

I could understand checking the flop if there were 5 behind you, but 3? Quite frankly, I bet this hand until someone raises me.

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This hand qualifies for WAWB, I would rethink your line.

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My line IS wa/wb.

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He was refering to my line of betting until raised. And The more I look at your line, the more I like it. If he doesn't have an ace, he may well check behind on the river, costing you value. If he does have an ace, the way you played the hand is suspicious enough that he likely can't raise. Are you folding to a river raise?

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yes
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  #15  
Old 10-23-2005, 09:32 PM
Jake (The Snake) Jake (The Snake) is offline
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Default Re: Live 4/8 hand

I'm not so sure about the river on this one.

A common misconception people have on this board is that c/c c/c b/f is the only way to play a way ahead/way behind hand out of position. You can also c/c or maybe c/f the river depending on the opponent and your cards. Usually when you have KK on an ace board you have more like 40% equity while when you have Ax you have 60%, so this changes your river play.

I think you'd be better to c/c this river.

Edit: oops, meant c/c

Also, yeah I still bet these flops, nobody else raised preflop so there's no reason to suspect so strongly that somebody has an ace yet.
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  #16  
Old 10-23-2005, 09:38 PM
W. Deranged W. Deranged is offline
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Default Re: Live 4/8 hand

I think this hand is played in an unnecessarily complex way.

You are the pre-flop raiser. You should bet the flop.

Checking the flop completely gives up control of the hand. Often, betting would simply allow you to take this pot down without any further contest (4 handed is not that multiway). By checking, you forgo this right. It then places you in the position of having to play the hand without iniative.

Way Ahead/Way Behind is a powerful line in many situations. But, until proven otherwise, on the flop you should not approach this as WA/WB. You have the best hand until proven otherwise. Once you get called/raised, then you should start reevaluating; betting the flop and then checking the turn indeed might be a correct way to play this depending on what happens after your flop bet.

Checking the flop gives up your right to win without showdown, provides you no sense of the quality of your opponent's hands, confuses your opponents and/or gives away the fact that you don't like the board, and many other bad things.

So bet the flop and reevaluate.
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  #17  
Old 10-23-2005, 09:43 PM
JacksonTens JacksonTens is offline
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Default Re: Live 4/8 hand

KK must bet. Must. If raised, against a typical 4/8 ABC passive, you can let it go right there. Betting IS the easy option.

JT [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
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  #18  
Old 10-23-2005, 09:47 PM
W. Deranged W. Deranged is offline
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Default Re: Live 4/8 hand

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not so sure about the river on this one.

A common misconception people have on this board is that c/c c/c b/f is the only way to play a way ahead/way behind hand out of position. You can also c/c or c/f the river depending on the opponent and your cards. Usually when you have KK on an ace board you have more like 40% equity while when you have Ax you have 60%, so this changes your river play.

I think you could make a good argument for c/f this river if the opponent is good. Anybody agree?

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I think you definitely can.

The important point to me is that, in the hierarchy of concepts to apply when playing a poker hand, that of "having the initiative as the pre-flop raiser with a good, showdown-able hand is a good thing" trumps "way ahead/way behind."

My basic thought is that some people responding to this post are so excited to find a possible WA/WB situation that they are not approaching this hand with the normal, straightforward poker approach that dominates play in like 90% of hands. Checking this flop does not make much sense.

Checking is more likely to cause you to lose money here. If you bet the flop and get raised, you may be able to confidently say you're against an A and fold. If you check the flop and commit immediately to going to showdown (which, in a four way pot, is foolish), you are committing to: a) never attempting to determine the strengths of your opponents hands; b) putting in money regardless of what those hands might be. This hand is not heads-up. Folding might be an option here. Similarly, since it's multiway, betting might actually cause opponents to fold (maybe not those with As, but maybe those with lesser outs). Betting makes this hand so much more straightforward to play.

Yet another way to think about this:

-If we bet and don't get raised, this is probably better than checking. If we check, either it gets bet behind us and we put in one bet anyway, or it gets checked through, and we may have missed bets.

-If we bet and get raised, fine. We can probably use our poker knowledge to make a sound decision about villain's hand, and probably get away from the hand more cheaply.

Going WA/WB assumes a bunch of factors that aren't at play here. One is that we absolutely have to get to showdown with our hand. (Not the case with an underpair in a four-way pot). Another is that betting puts us in a position to regularly get raised off the best hand. (Not the case in a four way pot, where the pot is generally protected and bets are more likely to mean something).

So we need to all think about the assumptions underlying certain buzz-word concepts before haphazardly applying them at the expense of much more basic concepts.
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  #19  
Old 10-23-2005, 10:00 PM
Jake (The Snake) Jake (The Snake) is offline
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Default Re: Live 4/8 hand

Yeah I agree on betting the flop here. While the flop is dry enough that we don't need to protect so badly, the pot is fairly large, and we can still make our opponents commit FTOP errors by (1) folding the flop with an ace or (2) calling the flop without one.

To clarify the river, I think b/f is probably best the way hero played the hand. But if villain had raised preflop and Hero had 3-bet, I like c/c better. My point was just that when you get to the river, don't just follow a line because you saw someone else do it, figure out why a particular line is best.
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  #20  
Old 10-23-2005, 10:10 PM
W. Deranged W. Deranged is offline
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Default Re: Live 4/8 hand

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah I agree on betting the flop here. While the flop is dry enough that we don't need to protect so badly, the pot is fairly large, and we can still make our opponents commit FTOP errors by (1) folding the flop with an ace or (2) calling the flop without one.

To clarify the river, I think b/f is probably best the way hero played the hand. But if villain had raised preflop and Hero had 3-bet, I like c/c better. My point was just that when you get to the river, don't just follow a line because you saw someone else do it, figure out why a particular line is best.

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I agree completely Jake. Very well put. I think we are both getting at the same point here, which is that some people are approaching this hand from the "way-ahead-way-behind-is-cool-let's-try-it" point of view, and hence approaching this hand to formulaically.
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