call down with A-hi UI

[TheHip41]

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PREFLOP: For me to consider raising with a garbage hand like A7o, there are a few key variables that have be in place.



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all i hear is blah blah blah weak tight [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]


If I was playing on Party, then I'd fold. PPl at Pokerroom love to check/fold flops to me.

If I had A7s, would that be a raising hand?

A7o, and KTo are about as bad as I get isolating one PR fish.

So if I'm folding A7o because he might have 66, or two live flush draw cards, wouldn't you also advocate folding if I held A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Qx, or Jx, or Tx ?

I'm not folding A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Qx on this flop

Seriously, his pfr is respectable, he doesn't have 99, TT, JJ or QQ, so it's not like I'm totally screwed here. He has 22-88, or a flush draw here like always. Once that baby card on the turn hits, I figure if he's got [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], I'm winning, if he has PP, he's winning, but I have 6 outs.

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A good discussion on whether to ISO or not to ISO can be found in "Poker Essays 1" by Mason Malmuth, on page 39. The hand he refers to is Ah4h, a very simular hand to A7o. I think you should read it.
Another good discussion of this kind of ISO strategy can be found in HPFAP on pages 33-35, I think you should read that also, especially the top paragraph on page 35.
Just trying to be helpful [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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I just moved, so those books aren't in my computer chair, so whatever. I still think you haven't experienced the weak tightness of PR for yourself. This isn't a 'standard' raise, but I probably do about 1/3 of the time.

When I raise, it's almost always HU vs the limper, or one blind decides to call. What is your cut off for raising here?

AKs, AK, AQs, AQ, AJs, AJ, ATs

these are auto
What about

ATo
A9s
A9o
A8s
A8o
A7s
A6s

Just wondering

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With no reads on the button, blinds or the limping opponent my cut off as far as raising would be ATo, KJo, QJs, JTs, 77's. I would limp in with many other holdings. And if the remaining players are tight I would open up my raising range some, and if both the remaining players are tight and the limper will play weak tight postflop then I will open up my raising a lot.

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So you raise ATo here, so that is equivolent to A8o for me. Since this was a table I was owning, I don't see how A7o is that far of a jump.


For what it's worth, I'm limping here like never. I've found that I can control things much better by raising every hand I'm going to play in the CO.

Are you limping 22-44 here? I'm probably not.

I'm raising 55-AA, A7-AK, KQ-KTo, and probably QTs, JTs. That gets me to about 12% [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]


Seriously, what are you limping here?


also, 2/4 is way different from 5-10. At 2/4 PP, I'm folding A9o and down all day, since it'll be 1000 ways to the flop regardless of what I do.

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For what it's worth, I'm limping here like never. I've found that I can control things much better by raising every hand I'm going to play in the CO.

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I agree 100%. All good players take advantage of their CO and Button hands, even if they're weaker than the preferred starting hand. The power of position is very important in poker. I would raise here with A7o as well to isolate the limper who certainly does not have us dominated. Unless he is a weak passive player, he would've raised AK-A9s. If he is a weak passive player, then raising with A7o is also fine because if the flop is lowball, then you win with one bet.

Oh yeah, I would call on any non-club river and raise any ace as well. Villian is betting a flush draw here a majority of the time.

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PREFLOP: For me to consider raising with a garbage hand like A7o, there are a few key variables that have be in place.



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all i hear is blah blah blah weak tight [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]


If I was playing on Party, then I'd fold. PPl at Pokerroom love to check/fold flops to me.

If I had A7s, would that be a raising hand?

A7o, and KTo are about as bad as I get isolating one PR fish.

So if I'm folding A7o because he might have 66, or two live flush draw cards, wouldn't you also advocate folding if I held A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Qx, or Jx, or Tx ?

I'm not folding A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Qx on this flop

Seriously, his pfr is respectable, he doesn't have 99, TT, JJ or QQ, so it's not like I'm totally screwed here. He has 22-88, or a flush draw here like always. Once that baby card on the turn hits, I figure if he's got [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], I'm winning, if he has PP, he's winning, but I have 6 outs.

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A good discussion on whether to ISO or not to ISO can be found in "Poker Essays 1" by Mason Malmuth, on page 39. The hand he refers to is Ah4h, a very simular hand to A7o. I think you should read it.
Another good discussion of this kind of ISO strategy can be found in HPFAP on pages 33-35, I think you should read that also, especially the top paragraph on page 35.
Just trying to be helpful [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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I just moved, so those books aren't in my computer chair, so whatever. I still think you haven't experienced the weak tightness of PR for yourself. This isn't a 'standard' raise, but I probably do about 1/3 of the time.

When I raise, it's almost always HU vs the limper, or one blind decides to call. What is your cut off for raising here?

AKs, AK, AQs, AQ, AJs, AJ, ATs

these are auto
What about

ATo
A9s
A9o
A8s
A8o
A7s
A6s

Just wondering

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With no reads on the button, blinds or the limping opponent my cut off as far as raising would be ATo, KJo, QJs, JTs, 77's. I would limp in with many other holdings. And if the remaining players are tight I would open up my raising range some, and if both the remaining players are tight and the limper will play weak tight postflop then I will open up my raising a lot.

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So you raise ATo here, so that is equivolent to A8o for me. Since this was a table I was owning, I don't see how A7o is that far of a jump.


For what it's worth, I'm limping here like never. I've found that I can control things much better by raising every hand I'm going to play in the CO.

Are you limping 22-44 here? I'm probably not.

I'm raising 55-AA, A7-AK, KQ-KTo, and probably QTs, JTs. That gets me to about 12% [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]


Seriously, what are you limping here?


also, 2/4 is way different from 5-10. At 2/4 PP, I'm folding A9o and down all day, since it'll be 1000 ways to the flop regardless of what I do.

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IMO if you are limping here never then you are playing too rigid in this spot. Many times you will be against a loose type opponent but you cant raise becuz your hand is not strong enough or the situation is not right(like the blinds are loose or you dont have good control over the limper....there are still many hands that are not strong enough to raise but still too strong to fold, hands like QTs,J9s, T9s, 98s, A4s, K9s, KTo,QJo,QTo,JTo,55,66....all these hands play very well against one loose limper, but the sitaution may not be right to raise with these hands, so limping in becomes the ideal strategy. Also I didnt mention KTs, with no reads I usually raise this hand against one loose limper, i forgot to mention that as one of my cut off hands.

[TheHip41]

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QTs,J9s, T9s, 98s, A4s, K9s, KTo,QJo,QTo,JTo,55,66.

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same limper as the orignial hand, still in CO, still at PR 5-10

QTs - raise
J9s - raise
T9s - raise
98s - raise
A4s - raise
K9s - raise
KTo - raise
QJo - raise
QTs - raise
QTo - fold
JTo - fold
55 - raise
66 - raise


People love being at my table [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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QTs,J9s, T9s, 98s, A4s, K9s, KTo,QJo,QTo,JTo,55,66.

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same limper as the orignial hand, still in CO, still at PR 5-10

QTs - raise
J9s - raise
T9s - raise
98s - raise
A4s - raise
K9s - raise
KTo - raise
QJo - raise
QTs - raise
QTo - fold
JTo - fold
55 - raise
66 - raise


People love being at my table [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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Iso-raising with these hands without a strong read on your opponent, the button, or the blinds should prove to be very costly for you over the long run. Whats worse is you will never notice this cost, since it wont be easy to see, so you will never realize this strategy is costing you, which makes it even that much more costlier. And QTo and JTo are very marginal hands that should be folded most of time, but a time they are definitely playable/profitable IMO is when you are in late position against a loose weak opponent.

Must be a typo.
15/47=31.9
15/46=32.6
31.9+32.6=64.5
Am I missing something?

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Must be a typo.
15/47=31.9
15/46=32.6
31.9+32.6=64.5
Am I missing something?

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Yes you are missing something, you are doing the math wrong, you cannot simply add the probabities together. The equation looks like this...you basically have to figure out the probability of the event not happnening and then take that probabilty and substract it from 1.
(32/47) x (31/46) = .4588,
1 - .4588 = .5412 which is 54.1%

[TheHip41]

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Must be a typo.
15/47=31.9
15/46=32.6
31.9+32.6=64.5
Am I missing something?

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I'm pretty sure that's not how you figure that out.

I'm not sure exactly, but that seems wrong.

Pokerstove says:

Low flush draw

Board: Kc Ks 3c
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 51.5657 % 51.11% 00.45% { Ac7s }
Hand 2: 48.4343 % 47.98% 00.45% { 9c8c }


Big flush draw:


Board: Kc Ks 3c
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 49.6465 % 49.19% 00.45% { Ac7s }
Hand 2: 50.3535 % 49.90% 00.45% { QcJc }


PP


Board: Kc Ks 3c
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 29.9551 % 29.75% 00.20% { Ac7s }
Hand 2: 70.0449 % 69.84% 00.20% { 66-22 }


If a blank hits the turn:

Small Flush draw

Board: Kc Ks 3c 4d
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 68.1818 % 68.18% 00.00% { Ac7s }
Hand 2: 31.8182 % 31.82% 00.00% { 9c8c }

Big flush draw

Board: Kc Ks 3c 4d
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 68.1818 % 68.18% 00.00% { Ac7s }
Hand 2: 31.8182 % 31.82% 00.00% { QcJc }


pp

Board: Kc Ks 3c 4d
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 13.6364 % 13.64% 00.00% { Ac7s }
Hand 2: 86.3636 % 86.36% 00.00% { 66-22 }

Thanks. I always do it wrong.

[TheHip41]

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Must be a typo.
15/47=31.9
15/46=32.6
31.9+32.6=64.5
Am I missing something?

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Yes you are missing something, you are doing the math wrong, you cannot simply add the probabities together. The equation looks like this...you basically have to figure out the probability of the event not happnening and then take that probabilty and substract it from 1.
(32/47) x (31/46) = .4588,
1 - .4588 = .5412 which is 54.1%

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I like his way better.

Say I have 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Opponent has A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

FLOP is 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

21/45 = 47%
21/44 = 48%

woo hoo, I'm a 95% favorite to win the pot!!! [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]